What Really Bugs Me About Debates About Trans People and Restrooms

A direct comparison is not possible without controlling for other variables, such as cultural norms. How do you know that gender-neutral bathrooms were not viewed as acceptable because the rate of sexual violence was lower to begin with?

 

The reality is that not every public place is going to turn their restrooms unisex where anything goes. There is no chance something like that would ever fly in society. What we are asking for are separate unisex options that anyone could go into if they choose. Most unisex restrooms that I have been in were basically just 1 or 2 toilets stuffed in a closet. Vary rarely is a unisex facility the only option to use. And I have yet to see one be a full blown restroom.

Society having 95% of restrooms and showers be a binary male a female system makes things massive pain for us. Us women have to suffer every time we are forced legally to use a mens restroom. It is degrading and opens us up to just as much sexual harassment and abuse. Not to mention that even in boy mode I have never felt comfortable being around a bunch of guys urinating. And it would not just be for us. Fathers could take their daughters in a unisex restroom and feel more comfortable. There are people who suffer social anxiety that would prefer to not be crowded around a bunch of people. Heck, I have seen a man with elephantiasis who was scared to use a mens room for fear of being ridiculed. I'm sure he would have liked the option of a private unisex restroom.

Yet whenever we ask for a simple 3rd option people start screaming that we are infringing on their rights; as if all bathrooms would then turn unisex and become Caligula dens of sin. Then the argument turns into these wild hypothetical ideas that basically paint us all as men in drag with no self control. We've been through enough BS by society as it is. All we want is the option to use a restroom without being degraded any further.

 

How many women in your family were raped using a restroom by a man?

Are you scared of me? Do you think my uncles who are not great men btw are waiting for you in a stall?

Phobia...an irrational fear, like all black men wanna rape white women.

---------- Post added 19th Feb 2013 at 08:37 PM ----------

^ This!:eusa_clap

BTW, my grandpa took me in mens room! I was not hurt...yeah he was with me...he also wouldabeen if i were a 4 yr old boy. Duh!

 

One. Isn't that enough? How many are an acceptable number by your standards?

And given the statistics of rape in this country, a woman's fear of being raped is far from irrational. When men STOP RAPING with such frequency, then you can call it irrational. I find it absolutely outrageous (and disgusting) that you think the problem is not that one in six women will be raped in their lifetime, but rather that women are afraid of being raped.

---------- Post added 20th Feb 2013 at 12:05 AM ----------

and to bring it back to the original topic, i think a third unisex bathroom is a reasonable option. around where i live, many larger public places have a "family" bathroom that you do not share with strangers. a lot of the smaller places have single-user restrooms that could just as well be unisex, too. i have been to a bar that had a unisex, multi-stall restroom (which i did not know beforehand) and i would not care to repeat that experience.

 

I have to say, the best option right now commonly seems to be a one-person gender neutral bathroom. Hopefully cis-women will be more okay with MtF women coming into women's multi-stall restrooms.

 

ONE. I am sorry it was any! But fact is, just because one person is raped has NOTHING to do with ALL MEN and you do group it as ALL...thus irrational fear, because it is BAD MEN who rape. Just like GUNS to not shoot BAD PEOPLE shoot guns. Just like not all old people can't drive good, just like not all teens hate their parents, just like not all lesbians wear plaid. PUH! Bigotry.

I can undy if YOU were the one person in your family raped you are now phobic, it is something really hard to deal with. However, it is not rational to look at STATISTICS and make them alive...maybe looking left and right seeing all the boys being born and thinking "and that one will rape that girl, and that boy will rape and that one..."

Why does having unisex, family, or gender-free restrooms in restaurants, malls, and colleges freak you out? oh i see...your next post said is fine...why did you rant on then??

---------- Post added 19th Feb 2013 at 09:50 PM ----------

Like I said, they have had zero problems at the college in DC with it, and it is nice multistall, plenty of women use it.

 

Okay I think this is kinda where we're talking past each other. Your valid point if I understand it right is that women have a legit fear of rape. You're right. We do. My point as a trans girl is that I don't have anywhere I can feel safe going to the bathroom at all a lot of the time, and I think that's just as valid.

What it feels like we're dancing around, is I don't think letting biologically male people use the women's bathroom is going to put anyone at more of a rape risk. I consider myself a woman, and I don't want to be raped either. If you do think this would make things worse I like to think I'm open minded. And if there is more of a rape risk I think that needs to be dealt with before we can even think of asking cis women to open the bathroom doors.

Basically this feels like we've got to solve a laundry list of problems before our problem gets considered. I'm cool with solving those problems. They are real problems. Rape shouldn't happen to anyone. We need to be aware of it and we need to figure out how to keep people safe.

But a world without rape is a world where I still don't have a bathroom I can use always that I won't get harassed in. And cis women would still feel awkward about letting me use the bathroom that matches my gender. So that's why I think the problem keeping things the way they are is a cultural one. I don't think you've gotta be afraid of us stopping in the girl's room, and I do think if people were used to it it wouldn't be a problem at all.

---------- Post added 19th Feb 2013 at 10:10 PM ----------

Sorry I hate doing that thing where there's more than one of us talking to you 'cause it sucks when it happens to me. I got a post in between mine and yours. Not trying to "gang up" I swear.

And I'd probably avoid the unisex bar bathroom too. Ew. Then again I've been in bars where every bathroom was unisex even if it wasn't :lol:

 

we can't wait to pee that long...I can't hold it in. Okay, I am running to my dorm again, happy ya'all?

sad facts: rape happens, murder, suicide, venerial disease, cancer, planes crash, etc...happens. Often. We all get hurt and die, but not all of us will be raped, murdered, commit suicide, get an STD, contract cancer, or be in a plane crash...and so it would be irrational to say ground all planes or never step foot on one then nobody will worry of death in a plane, there are car accidents!

So, not trying to poo poo rape, okay, gee...I am saying that there is an irrationality about generalizing in culture that ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS AT HEART...put em in a room with a girl alone, and she is in danger. GEE!

Okay, Dear God...you all asked for it...Please make every woman be a cis-gender man for 24 hours and then let them see how it feels to have women all thinking they are bad suddenly cuz they wear a tie. Amen.

Do you seriously have to BE a man to put yourself into our shoes, yeah it is not fair that gender queers of any type transgender have to choose which bathroom mens or women's, always fearing that if they use women's they will get stares, comments you are in wrong place or worse kicked out and screamed at.

I was at Target, they said women's is backed up, please use mens! No prob! Me and a woman walked in, i saw a cis-gender male walk past, head down, he did not care, men don't look...it aint the powder room, they are not chatting and hanging out in there...get it done and out. I think the bad guys would not be a problem in a gender free bathroom in USA any more than Europe either, because I find it insulting to say European men rape less and are more moral culturally than Yankees.

 

Show me precisely where I said that ALL men are rapists. You cannot, because I did not. However, last time I checked, rapists don't go around wearing labels on their foreheads, so yes, I will be cautious if I am in a secluded location with men I don't know, or know but don't trust. You keep trying to dodge the statistics with inaccurate comparisons, but the fact remains that the odds of being raped if you are female are startlingly and unacceptably high. Ten times more likely to be raped than die in a car crash. I am amazed by your ability to turn a hateful, misogynistic crime into bigotry on the part of women who simply do not want to be victimized.

 

Woah wait. I just read the previous page. I honestly didn't realize I'd done this and if I did I apologize. That's not cool with me at all.

---------- Post added 19th Feb 2013 at 10:38 PM ----------

Hey we can have some friendly discussions and arguments though right? I mean this is an interesting problem with no easy answers. The best kind to talk about if you're asking me.

 

The tone of that sentence gives such a feel, however you are correct in the notion and yes my culture's view on most women is far to objectifying and needs to grow up, which is something everyone really needs to do. Which is not to deny the importance of acknowledging and informing risk prevention of such acts.

Basically long and short is rape is bad and so is how women are perceived by men in my culture in general.

 

I am pretty sure that was not directed at you, cassie.

there sure are no easy answers. my partner isn't trans but she is a very masculine woman who often has anxiety using public restrooms because other women have no qualms about informing her (quite nastily at times) that she is in the "wrong" bathroom. so on some level i can relate to where you are coming from. i'm really not sure what the solution is, though.

 

Allow me to put this simply: Nobody is saying all men are rapists, just as not all cars will hit people and MOST drivers do watch out for pedestrians. Doesn't mean people shouldn't look both ways when crossing the street.
A woman being cautious is not an affront to you or your maleness and I've never understood why this topic always dissolves into perceived male-hate.

Yes, women have the potential to rape as well, but that is such a rare statistic that (in keeping with the analogy of crossing the street) you check for falling planes every time you move into the crosswalk. Possible? Absolutely. Probable? Not so much.

 

I agree with this. It's not wrong for women to be cautious around male strangers because there is a rape culture. If a woman is scared or cautious, she is not being hateful toward men.

 

It is the unfortunate truth that women have to be worried about rape. Nobody said that all guys are rapists or anything resembling that. Though because of the prevalence of it women have to be on guard for situations that could but then in a bad situation. Though linking trans-women and rape together is ironic since trans-women have the same fears. The fact I go to the bar with my gfs and have to use the male washroom really makes me nervous. The basis of this whole perspective ultimately boils down to the assumption that trans-women arnt real women. Basically from a societal perspective and due to this perspective there is no inclusion just segregation. Segregation by want gender exclusive bathrooms in the manner culture deems appropriate. Basically due to someone elses personal/societal views I have to put myself in a potential for physical danger. Like honestly im uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a guy too but the underlying base if we strip it right down is the lack of inclusion of trans people in their target gender if we are being truthfully honest.

 

I put my safety before a mans feelings. Sure, I'd like to be nice and trusting, but you know what? Maybe he'll be just like the boy who groped me on the bus. Maybe he'll be like the man that raped my family member, my friend. And I can't take that risk.

 

It dissolves into perceived male-hate because people don't like being judged based on what others have done. Thing is, statistically, it makes sense to be more cautious of certain people and certain crimes based on sex, age or race but it doesn't change the fact that it fucking sucks to be treated and judged that way. It's a weird gray area where on one side you have trying to not prejudge people and on the other you have to worry about your safety.
We like to say everyone should be treated equally regardless of a list of things but truth is almost everyone is full of shit when they say it, there will be things that override that.
So is it wrong? It's a really shitty state of affairs.

For the restroom and locker rooms debate, ideally they would all be sex-neutral and measures against violence, sexual or otherwise, towards all sexes would be taken in other forms by society in general and people could get over the whole human body ordeal. Practically people aren't getting over the body thing and rape is a big problem, so just a sex-neutral option would be a nice step in a better direction (though it isn't perfect for those that are transgender or intersex I imagine).

 

He found quickly the exact statement RedStorming made that was a generalization of ALL men. Which is why I had highlighted it. I think because of feminism that teaches all men are out to get you that is why they can't even see that when they are talking about men or to men they are using language that is disrespectful to good guys. Not one man in my family, grampa, uncles, cousins...none of em are rapists, thank you. I do not think a man must go around with a sign on him saying "I am safe, I am not here to rape you, please walk on same sidewalk and don't panic I am just going to the store"...you have no idea how cruel it sounds. assuming all men are going to rape all women AND in case of my church ladies the babies in nursery if left alone...it sickens me. that is why here of all places we should have discussion about it. don't throw "statistics" in it as excuse to say all guys are dangerous. walking around in fear is not healthy.

---------- Post added 20th Feb 2013 at 09:30 AM ----------

^ that!

---------- Post added 20th Feb 2013 at 09:32 AM ----------

OMG...maybe that German wants to kill a Jew, it happened, I should fear all Germans! That is how this sounds. So you are getting onto a bus, you sit near the driver, and a man with a backpack gets on and sits next to you in only available seat and turns his iPod on. You are scared now?

---------- Post added 20th Feb 2013 at 09:43 AM ----------

I find it interesting that transwomen and transmen are discussing how odd it is to use the toilet, to just go urinate as all humans and animals even must do, all because they have only 2 available labeled segregated bathrooms...at home we do not.

Yet cis-gender women are on here basically saying they are against the idea we use the restroom...guess what, we will pee somewhere!

They are defending the stance of the rest of the heterosexual cis-gender populace (in America that is) that says segregation of things for men and women is for women's safety. However, I think it is more for their own privacy...they feel comfy with a powder room in a restaurant for women and men just want to use the urinals and nobody wants stared at by any gender when peeing. But...

as I stated before there are in Europe genderless bathrooms, so if they do it we can too. i also stated they have em in a uni in DC, so if they do it all schools can too.

it is not about rape, it is about getting to go pee! i was just told cuz my birth certificate has my school office saying I'm female i must have a female roommate in Costa Rica! OMG, i will tell her right away do NOT get naked in front of me...and I won't either...bathroom to get dressed in! assumptions that somebody who looks as i do MUST room with a female is just odd...but i will use whatever bathroom i must to urinate there too.

 

When did this discussion change to rape prevention? With that in mind, wouldn't the worse you'd get is sexual harassment by wandering hands? As already pointed out, there isn't much of a way to hide the act, so the location is not ideal, and yes I do agree women should be cautious but if you remove the urinals ad only had stalls, small ones at that, you wouldn't have much room for two full grown adults.

Though before it is mentioned, yes the bathroom might be empty or on a slow day and there is a risk then. My only idea to counter that would be maybe a button to call a staff in the bathroom to report it that is a silent alarm. It doesn't stop the act right away, but gets someone to know and then stop it.