Dan Savage

Very true. We all know Alexander the Great said that.

 

What Pret said times about a bazillion.

"just like I have not come out at work yet because my boss who will soon decide my future has made anti-gay remarks" First of all that sucks and I wish you weren't forced to have to have to think about these things. But that's not a good comparison.

You clearly don't have any idea what it's like to be a trans person and have gender dysphoria since you're just saying "suck it up." Especially when Savage wants her to wait 36 months. 3 years!!!!! if you are desparate to transition once you decided it's the right thing and you finally have the courage, three years would feel like an eternity to wait because the dysphoria really does cause that much distress and it would be so selfish to actually ask someone to put off hormones and surgeries for 3 years when they had the means to get them, just so things were more convienent for other people. It might impact other people I know but they don't live every second of every day with my decisions like I do, no they get to go off and live their lives and do whatever and not have to suffer silently all the time like that trans woman would have.

While no two trans people are exactly the same, generally being repulsed by the sight of their body or their face, being disgusted about their genitals and using them, every wrong pronoun used making them feel more and more lonely or sad, feeling like no one really knows them, no human interaction where people see them for who they really are, just to name a few things some trans people have to deal with, and then add in the fact that prior to transition if you knew who you were from the begining that's been your whole life. It's fucking unbearable.

That's why starting transition is not the same as telling other people about a sexual preference.

 

:eusa_clap Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. :eusa_clap

I agree with every word both of you have said.

 

Well, I guess my point is proven.

You've not only marginalized me, but made me feel like an idiot and dismissed my opinion because I obviously have no clue what you are going through, as I am only a gay man, and it is soooooo easy to hide my sexual orientation from a homophobic boss who has direct control of the future of my career for the next year. After all, it's just my sexual preference right? Who cares. And all this just because I suggested that someone should consider how their decision will affect the people in their lives? I never said they should delay it, only that it should be a consideration in their decision to begin a transition, just like I must consider the career implications if I choose to come out at work in the next year.

Seriously people? This is why so many people are scared sh*tless to talk about this subject, and why as a direct result it is so misunderstood.

 

Really really seems like you were suggesting things with the you just have to suck it up for a while until your situation improves before making a life changing announcement. Like I said I think your situation is sucks and I'm not trying to minimalize it, it's just not the same thing as transitioning.

Some people may be scared to talk about but it but I talk to people about it all the time and it usually goes very well. It doesn't go quite as well when people try to make suggestions about how best to handle trans related situations/issues when they aren't trans themselves and don't know what it is like to be trans. That's why those comments about what she either should or maybe should do felt callous and a bit offensive to me, (and I'm willing to bet there were other trans people reading who felt at least a little hurt or annoyed by some of the comments you've made).

 

So just to confirm...my suggestion that the impact of your decision on your family should be a factor in deciding when (not if) to transition is callous and offensive?

For example my cousin decided to transition a few years before doing it, as his mother was sick and he decided to wait until she died to make it easier on her last couple years. Was he wrong for considering the impact on his sick mother? Or would it just be wrong if anybody that wasn't trans suggested it? The reason I brought up my situation is that sometimes your circumstances must be considered, not to claim that coming out is the same as transitioning.

Or put another way, if a trans person or partner of a trans person call a sex advice show for advice from a gay man, anything that man says should be dismissed because he can't possibly understand how they feel, and he should then be labeled as transphobic?

 

I wrote about a paragraph about what I think Dan Savage and people like him should be called and if I think he's a transphobic person in I think my first post in the thread if you wanna read what I think on that. I think Savage could have been much more respectful of her by using female pronouns for starters and a lot more sensitive to the fact that it is that woman's decision about which and when to receive medically necessary treatments for her dysphoria.

"If I made this decision and had a son in high school, I would put serious thought into delaying it a year or two so that my son could avoid the bullying and teasing at high school, *just like* I have not come out at work yet..."(* for emphasis)

Well you described the trans person's situation then said "just like" and then immediatly described your situation with work/orientation, I didn't interpret that as "sometimes your circumstances must be considered" and neither did another member who commented that your experiences as a cis gay man probably aren't comparable to that of a trans person or don't give you much insight into their experiences or something like that.

Also after describing both situations you say "In a perfect world we could all live exactly how we want, but sometimes you just have to suck it up for a while until your situation improves before making a life changing announcement"

That seems like you are asserting that she should have waited or "suck it up" and not made the decision she had. That's what seems offensive.

I don't think it's your place to assert that, I don't even think me being trans makes it okay to assert when someone else should transition, I think that only the individual knows how they feel and how decisions may impact them so imo, it's her decision and your cousin's decision about when to transition and I wouldn't judge anyone as self denying or selfish/irresponsible for waiting or doing things asap.

 

I'm not asserting that she should have sucked it up, but there are many situations in which it would be better to wait (aka suck it up), either for you or your family's safety, or for financial reasons or for social reasons. I would never tell someone what they should do, but I will suggest what they should consider before making a change like that.

Remember, I am just challenging you people on your claim that Dan savage is transphobic. You have dismissed me completely, minimized my own struggle with sexuality, and talked down to me, even though a member of my own family is going through this situation. The condescending way that you label me just a cis gender is pretty disappointing as well.

 

I didn't think I minimalized and if I did I certainly did not mean to, I thought I was showing I felt sorry for you when I said I thought it sucked and wished it didn't make sense for you to do that and I honestly do feel your struggle is awful.

No you've done more than challenge Savage being a transphobic person, I've clearly laid out where you have passed judgement and compared orientation and trans stuff and asserted what that trans person should do. As for what I remember, I remember posting about the trans woman's situation and how I thought that Savage was mean and ignorant but maybe not transphobic, not quoting any member of the site (including Bradley) and just trying to express my opinions about Savage and the use of terms and then you posted this:

You quoted an excerpt of what I wrote in that first post here: I would hate even more is being judged by cis gender people like Savage as being unthoughtful or stupid because the timing of transition wasn't convienent for other people.

Then you wrote this which not once said either Dan, Savage, transphobia, transphoic and was about challenging when she should transition:

"A decision to undergo a transition not only affects you but everybody in your life. I think it's irresponsible and selfish to always make the assumption that no matter how it might affect others one should immediately undergo the procedure if they desire to live as the other gender.

If I made this decision and had a son in high school, I would put serious thought into delaying it a year or two so that my son could avoid the bullying and teasing at high school, just like I have not come out at work yet because my boss who will soon decide my future has made anti-gay remarks. In a perfect world we could all live exactly how we want, but sometimes you just have to suck it up for a while until your situation improves before making a life changing announcement."



Dismissive - showing indifference or disregard. As for the indifference part, I feel angry about your comments and if that isn't coming through what has already been posted by me I'm baffled.

And as for disregarding part of the definition I haven't done anything like write, Your opinions are wrong and I don't care about anything you say!! I have pretty clearly quoted you and laid out why I interpreted which statements as being offensive or ill-informed and why I disagree with your ideas about what the trans person should do.

You tell me I'm minimalizing, dismisive and talking down, without explaining how after I've tried so hard to explain why I thought what you were saying was wrong, no quotes with explanations or anything. Although I don't deny you feel those things I just don't understand why.

And I've labeled you as "just a cis gender", I searched my posts high and low so I could tell you no I did not do that, another member and I have commented that your experiences as a cis gay male aren't comparable enough to trans issues for you to make general claims about when transgender people should be transitioning. And for the record I have no problems with cis gender people and don't feel that's a dirty term at all and it's not bad at all that you are cis gender, I'd love to be a cis gal myself believe it or not.

But it's sort of like me being white and not being able to compare the experience of being white to being black, I'm not bad because I am white but I don't get to be an authority on the experience of moving through the world as a black person and how they should handle issues relating to being black.

So when I was only trying to share my thoughts(hadn't gone out of my way to challenge you specificly either), you've challenged my feelings, opinions and experiences of being a trans person and transitioning by quoting me, then comparing the trans situation to your different situation (I don't deny it is absolute shit that you go through what you do) as a cis gay male at work then say you say sometimes in life you gotta suck it up. I get annoyed (I don't apologize that being annoyed came through in my posts, I think I'm entitled to feeling that way after you challenged me) that a cis gender person feels they know better about when to transition/trans stuff than a trans person and try to explain my opinions in as much clarity and detail as I can. And now I am the bully?

 

Where is the evidence he said these things?

 

"If I made this decision and had a son in high school, I would put serious thought into delaying it a year or two so that my son could avoid the bullying and teasing at high school, *just like* I have not come out at work yet..."(* for emphasis)

Well you described the trans person's situation then said "just like" and then immediatly described your situation with work/orientation, I didn't interpret that as "sometimes your circumstances must be considered" and neither did another member who commented that your experiences as a cis gay man probably aren't comparable to that of a trans person or don't give you much insight into their experiences or something like that.

Also after describing both situations you say "In a perfect world we could all live exactly how we want, but sometimes you just have to suck it up for a while until your situation improves before making a life changing announcement"

That seems like you are asserting that she should have waited or "suck it up" and not made the decision she had. That's what seems offensive.

I don't think it's your place to assert that, I don't even think me being trans makes it okay to assert when someone else should transition, I think that only the individual knows how they feel and how decisions may impact them so imo, it's her decision and your cousin's decision about when to transition and I wouldn't judge anyone as self denying or selfish/irresponsible for waiting or doing things asap.


The above is something I posted earlier.

If it isn't evidence I don't know what is. And if you don't belive me that he went out of his way to challenge me on the transition issue just look at page two.

 

Video?
Audio?
Written text?
I can Write down any text then Claim he was the one that said it...but where is the Concrete proof?

 

Bradely said it, it's in page two and three you don't even need me to post what he said it's all right here in this very thread.

---------- Post added 28th Dec 2012 at 12:14 PM ----------

I can do that really easily though if you'd like, I even did it multiple times in page two and three

---------- Post added 28th Dec 2012 at 12:15 PM ----------

Like that was his first reply to a sniped version of what my first post in this thread was.

---------- Post added 28th Dec 2012 at 12:17 PM ----------

It just has a box around it now instead of copy and pasted text.

---------- Post added 28th Dec 2012 at 12:19 PM ----------

And now I see he did put transphobic in a second paragraph so my mistake on that one, but I still think we'd agree that Savage was a ignorant judging by that second paragraph and he still very much challenged me on the transition thing. I guess we've both posted inacurate things about what the other has said now.

 

Just because Bradley posted it doesn't mean its True, All I see is a link to a Tumblr and just because its on Tumblr doesn't mean its True either.

 

OHHHHHHH I see now. Here Savage Love by Dan Savage - Seattle Columns - Savage Love - Dan Savage - The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper

---------- Post added 28th Dec 2012 at 12:25 PM ----------

I'm not mad about Savage right now though, I think he was insensitive and ignorant but I more took issue with how Bradley tried to call out my feelings on transition. And was justifying it with his comparison to his own issue.

 

He is not the Homosexual male we Deserve but he is the homosexual we need right now.

 

I'm wearing a batman shirt as we speak :roflmao: . I still wish the T just had their own person to speak on trans issues though. Nothing wrong with allies sticking up for the trans community when they do, I just think there's a place for a trans spokesperson/people and that it could be helpful for us trans people.

 

I just wanted to address a misconception in here from Bradley (don't feel like reading through his posts to quote the post he said this in). It's not 'desire to live as the other gender'. No transgender person wants to live as the other gender, we already do that before transition. We want to live as the right gender.

 

Aren't there Trans activist out there who are trans?