Heterosexual Male Bullshit

I am sorry about the way we behave, and I agree that it is bullshit. It's something that we have to fix amongst ourselves.

 

I know how you feel, this week is Pride in our capital city and yesterday I read an article about it. I looked down to read the posts in the discussion and what do you think I found? Except for ordinary homphobic crap a lots of posts were similar to this:
"I hate fags but two hot lesbians, that is something else."
It bothers me, but what can we do? I understand that not every single heterosexual man is this way, but it's something that needs to stop. We are not here because they'd like two "hot lesbians" in their beds.

 

I feel like there's a thin line between objectification and a perfectly harmless enjoyment of observing your preferred gender (or two people of your preferred gender). I have heterosexual male friends who think the idea of two women together is arousing or fascinating, but I don't feel objectified by it. The idea of someone who is against homosexuality but will make an exception in the name of ogling lesbians is another story, though.

 

Hey now, I don't see the need to apologize for things you aren't guilty of. All humans are individuals so I think it's quite silly to be sorry for such things. But hey, that's just me.

 

Don't beat yourself up too much. You realize now, and things will be different. If there were more people having that experience like you, the world would be a better place.

 

So you want men to stop getting turned on by two women together? Not going to happen. You want them to stop talking about their attractions? Not going to happen. I don't really get whats wrong with saying this and that is hot.

Edit: Regarding homophobic individuals and the opinions on lesbians, why do their opinions even matter?

 

Oh, no worries. Except for the last bit there weren't any examples, so I wasn't quite sure what behaviors you were or were not talking about.

 

I can see how you feel that way, and I guess it would make sense for someone who has transitioned. I can definitely see how your viewpoint would shift in that direction.

However, I'll speak from my own personal view point as a gay male. There are some straight women out there - not as many as I'd like but they do exist - who like the idea of two men being together. It turns them on. It doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I'd like for more straight women to feel that way.

I guess my approach to things is different. I find human sexuality - in all its flavors - a beautiful thing. It doesn't mean that I want to personally sample it all, but I enjoy human eroticism and beauty. Sexuality, lust, desire - these are human emotions and traits - base instincts.

As gays and lesbians we're hardly exempt from guilt in this regard. How many of us have ever fantasized about someone who was straight? I'd imagine we all have at one time or another, and there is nothing wrong with that. Hell, the straight male fantasy is a huge gay porn business.

If a woman came to me and told me of her fantasy - she wanted to watch her husband having sex with another man. She wanted me to be the other man. My response wouldn't be offense. At first, I'd be slightly amused and then I'd be flattered. I might consider the idea, and I'd determine my level of comfort with it before I'd consent to anything. Over all, I'd be greatly flattered to be desired in such a way. In the end, as I'd have the power to refuse it wouldn't cause any harm to me... and her fantasies obviously aren't wrong, dirty, or anything else.

I don't generally like the idea of punishing people for their sexual desires and fantasies. I suppose being gay has made me hyper-aware of the type of sexual oppression that exists in our culture.

 

I find you are very articulated Aldrick and I 100% agree with your point of view!!

Though, have you witnessed real bigotry? I mean heterosexual guys who are basically your friends or colleges or whatever, and when they learn about your orientation, their eyes go watery slightly and they change their whole body language, stop listening to what you say and project their sexual thoughts so strong you can hear them.
Then they turn around and boast with their friends about sexy lesbians, giving you side looks and grins; you're nothing else but a potential porn star for them, a sex doll. NOTHING else.

When you're not attracted to them in return the current doesn't pass, that, I can tell you from experience, a little bit like if all they wanted was to put (the food item you like the least in the whole world) in your mouth and see you swallowing it.

I have straight friends too but when I see them being like that I'm like.. what the hell?

 

I think the first time I was struck with that was when a straight guy, on hearing that I'm gay, answered "if you were better looking, I'd think that was okay". That came across as "being a lesbian is all right only if I, a straight man, find you attractive".

 

I get that all the time because of my tattoos :roflmao:
Total strangers come forth and tell me that the type of tattoos I got aren't fit for a female :eusa_doh: or that women with tattoos are repulsive...


"Oh my thank you sir! I didn't realize that I was repulsive to YOU, the MOST important person in the universe. Indeed I will have those nasty tattoos removed for your pleasing because everyone should conform to the norm that YOU set, I might also behave more like a girl should from now on.. thank you so much and have a nice day."

 

I have actually always felt for your side, girls. My brother tells me homosexualism is disgusting, and yet he has girl on girl pornos under his bed. I wish I could tell him how I felt about his bigotry, but then he would give me hell for being gay (when I was sexually confused, I stood up for gays and he gave me all hell in return, instantly claiming that I must be gay, because all straight men find two guys kissing disgusting, bigot :/).

 

You make a good point and I agree. I am a huge Yaoi and slash (malexmale relations) fanfiction fan. I even read slash more than femslash (femalexfemale relations.) When it comes to actual real person porn, two men together does not put a giddy up in my heehaw, but that's a whole other conversation. :lol: Point is two guys together just makes me eek! Even I love it and I'm a lesbian.

One thing I want to point out, though, you said "if a woman told you..." This puts the image in mind of a woman just talking to you, having a close or intimate conversation with you about what turns her on, whether she's been a friend of yours for a while or she's some woman you recently met and are casually chatting with.

I think the OP is saying, that does not happen often with lesbians when straight men sexually objectify them and that's what bothers the OP about the whole situation. Most guys are not simply having a conversation with a lesbian and mentioning "hey, this is what turns me on." If that were the case then the lesbian he's talking to would be like "yeah, me too man!" Instead, there's this creepy sense of almost ownership I've witnessed and experienced (from my own "friends") that a lesbian sometimes feels when a straight man sexually objectifies her. You know I think it goes back to women in general not wanting to be seen as men's objects or property or something that was made for their amusement, use, whatever.

In this case, we see a subsection of that, where straight men oogle disrespectfully, they talk down to lesbians with phrases like "I'd still fuck you" or "when you have your first girl, I'll be there with a camera watching" (words straight from a "friend's" mouth) or worse "that's hot, but you haven't been with a real man yet." And this is something some straight men say even when they're not referring to themselves as the "real man," they just mean in general. That to me is just reminiscent of the good ol' fashioned superiority "men know what's best for women" bullshit that's been shovelled through society for many, many years. And straight men have it worse. (Why wouldn't they? They are at the top of the societal food chain, so to speak.) That, I think, is a part of why this behavior is so troubling, annoying, and sometimes scary even (I know I've been scared when guys talk to me like that and look at me like that as if I didn't just tell them I'm not available to them--but then again I have a personal history with sexual abuse, so it could be a little of that too. Not all lesbians feel fear in those situations, could just be me.)

When straight men sexually objectify lesbians it's not as harmless as they just think it's hot and voice it in conversation with a friend or whatever. If that were the case, then by all means think away. I would take that over those men who beat that woman in Lincoln, Nebraska not too long ago because they thought she was so disgusting. I'm sure if more people at least thought there was something sexy or alluring about LGBT people instead of finding them disgusting, there would be less hate crimes. However, the difference between that and what the OP is talking about is that this behavior from some straight men demeans the woman, not even necessarily the lesbian (although, that aspect of the woman is, too, disrespected.)

I think this issue is just a branch on the very large tree of sexism and I mean male sexism towards females, females sexism towards males, female sexism towards females, and male sexism towards males. It's all out there and it hurts people. If we were to draw the maginifying glass back and look more broadly, this all comes down to a feeling of superiority based on gender/gender roles. There are other forms of superiority--race, religion, etc--but here specifically, it's gender based superiority. It's a long running problem and will take a long time to get rid of. I completely understand the frustation and hurt of the OP and other posters who may have experienced this, especially by friends. It really is like seeing a whole other ugly side of someone you thought you knew. Me personally, I don't let a lot of men in my life because of my history, so to hear things like that come from guys I thought were my friends, guys I thought I would know for a long time...it was a low blow. But they can't help how they feel, which means they can't stop being dicks, and I can't help that I don't want to have anything to do with people who are dicks. So I am no longer friends with them as a result. And Bob's your Uncle.

You know this is a really good topic. I'm starting my sophmore year at University soon. I may use this as a topic for a research I know I will no doubt have in some class. :rolle: Thanks for this, I always love a good discussion. :smilewave

 

A lot of guys are complete jerks. I know that when I was in high school we had a lesbian couple (they were adorable btw ) and whenever they'd pass by you'd hear guys talking about it and it's disgusting how they acted like those two were only together to pander to the guys' sexual fantasies.

 

What I can definitely understand is the concept of lesbian sex STRICTLY for the pleasure of a man. I can definitely understand how that can be offensive, not because a man is titillated as a result of seeing two women together, but because it is demeaning. It is demeaning because of the value it places on the lesbian relationship. After all, what is wrong with another woman enjoying her body and the body of another woman in a sexual way? However, in my mind the issue isn't so much a sexual issue it's a sexist issue.

Now, I can say in our culture guys aren't generally viewed in the same sexual light as women. We have no where near the level of sexual objectification. It's a bit different among gays in the gay community though; because we tend to objectify each other. Though I see that as a symptom of growing up in a heteronormative culture. Just as I see the level of random and casual sex in the gay community as a symptom of the fact that our relationships have culturally - up until very recent years - been reduced to nothing but sex. What I mean by that - and it still happens - is when you hear straight people talking about gay relationships you might hear something like, "Do I talk about what I do in the bedroom? I don't want to hear about your sex life!" As if a gay relationship somehow was ONLY a sexual relationship.

It's one reason I continuously again and again point out that it is not the sex that makes someone gay, it's the romantic feelings we feel toward the same sex. It also deals with issues like, "How do I know if I'm gay if I've never had sex with someone of the same gender?" Again, that is sexualizing our relationships. A straight person never needed to have sex with the opposite gender to know they were straight.

Er, I think I went off on a side rant / tangent there. But I guess my over all point is that there are various levels of eroticization. You can be titillated, fantasize, admire, lust after, and desire something or someone. In my mind, there is nothing wrong with that, it's a good and healthy thing. It's good in my mind to be sex positive and encourage people to have healthy sexual thoughts. But there is also a line where an individual begins to demean others, to see them as existing solely for their own pleasure - it's an almost anti-social desire.

So, I can understand things from that point of view. It certainly exists among gay men as well, and I think as I said - it stems from the heteronormative and gender roles of our culture. So I see it more as an issue of a sexist and heteronormative culture than anything else.

 

I'm titillated by the thought or image of two females sexually involved with each other, without doubt. I'm also not ashamed of admitting it to others. I wouldn't call myself homophobic because of that.

 

I believe what they are saying is they hate it when Hetorosexual Males complain that gay relationships are disgusting, but say two girls is hot and act as if lesbians are there to only treat the heterosexual males pleasure.

 

The OP didnt mention homophobia though?

---------- Post added 14th Aug 2012 at 10:52 PM ----------

At least not the way you suggested, I think.