women!

Everyone take a deep breath and calm down. We all have different opinions, but attacking each other is not the way to go about it.

I hate to close threads, but please don't make us do our job.

 

Thread closed.

EDIT: We are reopening the thread on the basis that these personal / general attacks must be stopped in favour of keeping the thread as a discussion.

Back on topic please and play nicely

 

Well, I don't see how I can possibly give you any help understanding women generally, because every individual woman is different.

On the other hand, you might want to notice that women tend to be offended when you make generalizations about women or assume that there is some key to understanding us all.

If you like, I can try to help you understand this particular woman. But I want you to keep something in mind. You said that with guys, you keep away from the jerks. Are you as careful about which women you associate with? It seems like not, or like perhaps you are not as good at spotting the bad apples. Possibly you are blinded by your attraction to them. Or possibly, you are even unconsciously attracted to girls who are batshit crazy for some underlying psychological reason--that's more common than you would think. But maybe not, since you say this is the first time you have ever believed in PMS, and so forth. Although if she's the first crazy girl in your life, I'm not sure why you are directing your frustration at the entire female sex, instead of at just this one crazy person.

Incidentally, did she actually tell you she has PMS? Because if she didn't, you really need to justify why you are attributing her behavior to that. Men sometimes use it as a way of dismissing women without listening to them.

Premenstrual Syndrome, and it's most severe form Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder, are very real problems. While many women experience some more minor mood disruptions and physical symptoms, in less than 10% of women these symptoms rise to a level that merits a diagnosis of PMS, and a smaller number of women have symptoms severe enough to qualify for PMDD. PMDD is severe enough that they prescribe anti-depressants for it. Neither PMS nor PMDD is made up.

If you take hormone therapy in the future, you will notice that they can have very powerful effects on your mood and the way that you feel. This is also true of the hormonal fluctuations associated with a woman's menstrual cycle. It effects some people more strongly than others, perhaps in part because some women's hormones fluctuate more severely.

Now, what exactly are you confused about? Your post did not have a very clear question, and it's difficult to analyse exactly what's going on with your girl without a little more information. What happened?

 

Note to the mods: This first part of my post is not meant as an attack but as a defensive reaction to being labled as a sexist and misogynist. the tone of my writing isnt meant to be anything other then calm civility and If it is deemed as inaproptiate I would rather you take this part of the post out then shut down the thread but I feel I have a right to defend myself and some of the comments in this thread.

Way to overreact much? sexism and misogyny? really?. I don't think you really understand the power of these words and how incredibly misplaced they are in this post and on these posters (including me) because seriously if you had ever met someone who truly fit these terms you wouldn't be spouting them around here.

Just because a Male says something negative about a Female or Women in general does not mean they A. Hate all women and B. Think women inferior to men and while I'm not saying the original comments are true, they are held by many people of both genders.

People generalize it happens, is it right? no, not exactly but its not inherently bad either and they tend to be based off of real observations and usually reflects the majority or at least the most noticeable.

The OP chose to use generalizations and stereotypes to get what they were feeling across with no harm intended, now these generalizations and stereotypes might not fit you or anyone you know but they may in fact reflect every one or at least most of the females around the OP's life.

Now does this make him a women hater? no, does this mean he regards females as less then? no. He simple had no other way to express himself and trying to turn their post into some kind of hate speech is "absolutely ridiculous" and is not "conducive" in making EC a safe place for everyone.

And lets be honest here, we have all made comments or had thoughts or held opinions or made a joke that would be considered sexist, both men and women, that doesn't mean we are all bad people or are hateful of the opposite gender.

Also Logic is very different from being smart and you don't need to go to a class to use it or understand it. "Logic is the philosophical study of valid reasoning" something which you could have put into practice before replying to the OP.

Women are thought to follow their emotions more which is why they are often referred to as illogical as emotions can be more irrational, where as men are more often considered less emotional and therefore more logical. Its not exactly accurate for all cases but it doesn't mean its sexist either.

My comments werent meant to be offensive, maybe i left them a little short and without much detail. The video clip was a joke, was not even directed at women imo just people in general, what can i say i love Big Bang Theory.

It's always good to listen to girls opinions on how to interact with other girls as sometimes guys just miss a few things along the way. Though if you have to change too much about yourself (things that you like and aren't majorly negative things), like your joking around and being honest, the relationship is not going to be fair on you and I would suggest finding someone who likes you for these traits.

Also there is a very big difference to being right and being mature and honest about it and being right and being an ass about it. If there is a situation where you feel you are right and she is wrong you should make your feelings clear in a polite civil matter and then walk away if it gets to heated and maybe revisit the topic when both parties have calmed down.

If clothing is an issue that YOU want to change not just your gf or potential gf then you could always ask them to help you out when shopping, that way you are involving them and valuing their opinions, though you should still settle on clothes that you feel comfortable with.

Yeah I got your weird humor and I think a few others did too, sometimes its hard though on a forum to read other peoples posts the way they were originally intended.

Now you have to do what is going to be best for you in the long run, from what you have explained she doesnt sound ready for a mature relationship with you and i think its effecting you both negativly. I think just being friends with her for now would be the best solution at the moment.

 

i seriously dont think its sexist at all, my bestfriend is a girl and she loves that fact that she surrounds her self with men because they are straight forward, and dont play mind games and dont talk about fashion/tv drama all the time, all girls are different in their own ways. ill see if i can get her to comment

 

(writing this in the hopes someone would read it)

stereotypes, labelling, habits etc etc etc boring stuff.
personally being a woman ive observed that womens behaviour often reflect societal female stereotypes. go to china and most women can be sluts simply because there is a shortage in women (granted there are a huge number of men whom are gay) and women are hard to come by. go to india and women still worship men because its cultural and they usually settle for the least.
my point? welll im guessing that ur an american/canadian, so encountering materialistically driven and dogmatic women is somewhat common because it is what they perceive as normal. eventually they get so used to being like that, they might not have the courage to stop it and actually behave at will. i too have been there but realised i would rather do something different and be happy than do what everyone does and be unhappy
as the saying goes: it takes a strong fish to swim against the current, even a dead one can float with it
so in the end if u want a good relationship you shouldnt settle for less unless ur totally madly in love with her then let ur hormones determine ur decisions. that works too. if u crash and burn we'll be here for u.
your new goal in life is probably to find some girl who's not gonna keep u guessing. perhaps u could modify ur capability in confrontation but given by the tone of ur previous posts i guess u dont. its most likely she's too tense. thousands of apologies dont necessarily make up for actions. people can tell u wat u wanna hear and not mean it (but nevertheless that might be me being paranoid of manipulative beings).
so what is it that bothers u, the fact u cant understood women in general or that one girl? u can try to study human behaviour, first starting with sociology (studying humans as a collective) or individually, psychology per se. dont need to go to college/university for that im doing that on my own. inbox/wall message me and sanguine if a question does pop up.
if that requires too much effort, sit back relax, accept women as being alien and only use them for pleasure. im joking, dont, theyre gonna rip ur balls off (if u still have them- i do not mean to say that in a demeaning way).
dude ur thinking too much things will become clearer in due time just dont take and tolerate crap from women when they go overboard, if theyre shallow and selfish thats how most women turn out today anyways, get going in searching for the minority.

 

I wouldn't have labeled it misogyny, but I still stand by saying that a whole lot of what was said on this thread was sexist. I understand that many people might feel attacked by that, but there is a big difference between being told something you said is sexist and actually being sexist. If you don't understand what I mean, please watch this:

How To Tell People They Sound Racist - YouTube

Also, we understand exactly the power of the words which is why we use them. We're trying to make it clear that expressing sweeping generalizations about a giant group is not okay.

Okay, maybe it doesn't mean they hate all women, but it does mean they have very problematic views that need to be corrected.

I flatly disagree. Making generalizations is a way of refusing to engage with people as individuals.

Intent is not magic. I can say something that I believe is coming from a position of good faith and still hurt someone's feelings. I should make an effort to understand why it hurt their feelings and apologize.

I flatly disagree with this view too. And again, I would not have used misogyny to describe this, but sexism sure. As you pointed out, Empty Closets is a safe space. So please tell me what we're supposed to do if we believe that we're reading something sexist? Not say anything? Just feel less safe? It's not at all fair to say "I think people should be allowed to express these views, and I am going to shut down people who disagree and find it hurtful by invoking a 'safe space' claim." We didn't violate the safe space principle at any point in this discussion. We reacted to multiple violations of the safe space principle ourselves in fact.

Again, what we're trying to have is Jay Smooth's "what you said" conversation, and not the "what you are" conversation.

By whom? People who have unexamined issues about gender roles. I can't deal with meaningless generalizations. I have real people in front of me.

 

I know full well what you mean but that is not what was being implied in a lot of the posts. We are just going to have to agree to disagree that a lot of what has been said is sexist, as really it is all a matter of personal opinion and perspective. Just because someone finds something offensive or sexist doesn't make it so.

How so? because I am male I cant think anything negative about a female or females in general ever? interesting point of view.

Not at all. its all relative to the topic and situation at hand. Using the OP's post to set the scene but ill speak from my point of view, I may say that I don't understand one woman or I could say I don't understand all women, now the second is a generalization but if i have never come across a woman that i have ever understood it is more accurate and more important to the topic then saying I only cant understand one.

Generalizations have their place and always will, they should not be taken as 100% fact when taking into consideration the whole but to be considered true when applied to the majority of a situation.

Intent is not magic, of course but it is key. I see nothing wrong if people want to fully understand why peoples feelings were hurt and then if they feel they should, to then apologize.

However the same could be said to those who jumped to conclusions and labeled a few people in this thread as sexist and misogynistic, maybe they should have taken the time to understand what is being said, the intent of what is being said and why they are saying it and proceed from there.

Being respectful and understanding goes both ways.

What you are supposed to do? read above, try to understand before you label. React in a calm and civil manner (some of you did, some of you didnt) and I would disagree about the not violating the safe space rule.

There are always going to be topics that will cause issue here just like anywhere else, its all about how you handle them that is important and sometimes walking away is the best way to do so, or inform a mod\admin and maybe they can offer some polite advice.

Then be more clear in your wording when you use powerful words like "sexist" and Misogynist".

By whom? by people world over, men and women. People who's lives it is to study these things. I'm not saying it completely accurate. Nor am I saying these are my views but it is a very popular view amongst many. If I were to poll everyone I know they would agree to the above statement, that it is the majority and not the exception.

Oh and generalizations are based off of real people and real experiences.

Are you saying you have never ever used a generalization in your life? I find that very very hard to believe but all the same I appreciate your views and comments.

 

Telling me I'm "overreacting" because I, as a female, am "irrational" and "emotional" while you, as a male, are more "rational" and "emotional" is classic way that men shut down women in arguments. Nice one.

And I think I understand misogyny and sexism, thank you very much. I can't turn on the TV or walk down the street without witnessing it. Am I overreacting now?

Making generalizations like "all women are crazy" is sexist. It's rooted in the idea that women are irrational and emotional while men are rational and stoic, two qualities which are privileged as superior, implying that men are superior and women are inferior. The "feminine qualities" of are ascribed to women and are devalued by men to reinforce the gender binary. That is misogyny. That is sexism.

I know very well what logic is. Let me put into practice some classic (Aristotelian) logic for you.

All women are crazy
I am a woman
Therefore I am crazy

Hmm, how about not. No one argues logically, because logic is about form, not content. (Don't even get me started on modern logic.) I think you mean I should be using rhetorical arguments rather than logical arguments. There is a difference. How's that for men are more logical? Because logic has shit all to do with emotions. Women are not more emotional and therefore less logical and men are not less emotional and therefore more logical. Stop rationalizing sexist generalizations, they harm everybody, not just women.

I would just like to add that there's no such thing as the "female mind." There is no monolithic female mind. Carry on.

 

Sorry if that came out wrong.. i was speaking in generalizations. (which i know is what causes alot of trouble...) my point is, there IS a difference between the average male and the average female. we are biologically different - which includes our brain. They work differently which causes our behavior to be (generally) different. there's science to prove that women are usually more impulsive, not just what stigma society decided to slap on us.

 

LOL...sigh. First of all yes I did say you overreacted but in no way did I refer to your gender as the cause, great leap you took there. I don't hate women and I don't think less of women, never have never will. so please stop trying to make the labels fit me.

I also didn't say you didn't understand the meaning of the words but the POWER of them, meaning they are very strong and hurtful words and should be used carefully to label those truly deserving of them.

Frankly yes you are. Sexism and misogyny is out there and it is a problem but that doesn't mean you have to find it everywhere and in everything.

Again you take a leap and assume these terms are used negatively, I would label myself emotional and crazy a lot of the time and i don't consider it a bad thing at all. Also a lot of these terms i hear used by women to describe other women, so its not just men who can be sexist and hateful of women. (not that this is a justification of sexist views just that your post is very biased)

OK now i don't want you to take more things the wrong way and give you more fuel to wrongly label me a misogynist but i feel your post is coming off very hate filled and emotional and irrational no matter what gender you are and bordering on "misandry" but as I only know you from these posts I wont label you with any of these terms. Next time you feel offended it might be nice to show a bit more civility as I believe I showed in my previous post (maybe I'm wrong, but I meant no disrespect in any of my previous posts)

And I think we should not continue this conversation as I don't believe its leading anywhere productive.

 

way to many long complicated posts for what to me is a very simple conclusion:

men and women have different hormones so generally will act differently but counterbalance this with the fact everyones brains (thoughts and emotions) are different and everybody has a different upbringing. This equates to the fact that, wait for it...... EVERYBODY is different.

Generalising/stereotyping is incorrect I'm not even saying it's offensive (which it is btw) I'm saying it is actually factually wrong.

 

Pilgrimishot, I thank you for restoring sanity to this thread^_^
I dont see why we cant jutt forget about it. These long posts are making my eyes hurt.. Seriously. Haha

 

I agree with this.

Why do a few people say generalizations are "factually wrong"? because when they are taken for what they are, they are very true. They are even used all the time for educational purposes.

Generalizations need to be used with care though as people sometimes tend to misinterpret the intent behind them and then other times they are abused and used for hate.

Like I could say "A lot of gay guys are "femmy and flamboyant" which is true or I could say it like "all gay guys are femmy and flamboyant" which is false and offensive. now not every use of a generalization is this clear cut, or somebody says it in a way that can be misinterpreted and that is where problems usually happen.

so to say generalizations are false is incorrect and saying they are offensive is subjective.

 

yeah agreed rainbow lol too much text.

okay Arcane I see your point but in the interest of short snappy debate I will keep it very short.

1. I can't remember hearing a generalisation in school because I didn't think schools thought opinions which is what generalisations involving groups of people are opinions.

2. Generalisations can not be proven, unless you can tell me how many gay guys out of the total male gay population are "femmy and flamboyant" then your statement is incorrect/invalid/wrong, that is simply a fact.

 

Why are you people being nit picky and pedantic about his wordings and such. Sometimes one ought not be punished by his lack of articulation, I'm sure he was distraught and consequently spoke erratically, he means no harm. Relax people lol detach urself from the so called stereotypes, I don't feel insulted at all