My County just made English its "Official Language"

Christiaan what on earth are you talking about? Really what on earth are you talking about when it comes to this whole Yankee thing?

As for the rest well why would I want to go to these places? Aside from the fact that I might need to travel through them for some reason? A lot of really poor areas of the US have amazing historical sites or insane local food. Simply because I like to travel to random places maybe? I am not saying that I will count on the locals to understand me totally but guess what I AM going to count on the local cops or other people that deal with the public regularly to be able to as there is a common language taught in schools. Your reference to travel outside the US is such a poor comparison because if I travel outside the US I can count on a SINGLE language that is commonly understood and know in that country and thus should be able to do the same within my own.
Your ability to form a logical argument seems to be lacking and I recommend taking time to think through your points prior to posting. It would make this a lot more like a true debate where people learn things like I did with Shade then shooting fish in a barrel like I feel here.

 

It's not important.

Therefore, to make sure that a common language is taught in all of the schools, you are going to pass a law to make sure that there are no schools out there that teach Spanish language classes. That way, all of the young people out there who grow up knowing only Spanish will grow up without any education at all. It sounded like a great idea at one time, but we found out it just doesn't work. It has been tried. It was a failure.

If you are talking about a comprehensive system to make English as a second-language classes available, we have that, and it actually works very well. I agree with that system because it is tried and proven, not tried and flunked. It makes English language courses available to people who want to learn English as a job skill. It is an expression of American hospitality, which I am proud of.

As far as how feasible it is to make sure that ALL of the cops in a certain area are fluent in English, I would have to know the details of that particular district. If I don't know the details, I refuse to make a call.

Excuse me. What was that about your mother?

 

To me, the phrase official language is defined as the language in which the authoritative version of all legal instruments, whether it be a legislative bill or an executive order, of the land is written in, and the language in which the judiciary uses to interpret the legal instruments.

Whether you accept it or not, America is governed by the rule of law and the laws are English hence it is the language of the officialdom/bureaucracy in the land, implied or otherwise explicitly.

Canada is bilingual because a Canadian law written in French with all it's French interpretation will just be as forceful as the English version of it. The same cannot be said for America because your legislative assemblies have never passed a law in another language before.

 

And I frankly agree with it. Bills of Congress are actually written in a very standardized form of English. In fact, many people who grew up on colloquial English don't have an easy time of trying to understand it. For example, most people wouldn't be able to make much sense of, "Sec. 1413. Streamlining of procedures for enrollment through an exchange and State Medicaid, CHIP, and health subsidy programs." That's even if they saw it in context:

Text of H.R.3590 as Amendment in Senate (OC Prepared): Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress

It is simply by force of necessity.

In fact, I am always in favor of approaching and dealing with problems in terms of practical, concrete reality. I'm very much a radical pragmatist.

 

I just saw this on the Frederick News Post website! I live in Frederick too and this just made me I little sad to live there. Some of the things that happens in Frederick are rediculous..

 

In my opinion, yes, really.

In many countries, especially places like France and Germany, people do learn English. Enough that it is possible to survive in that country, generally speaking, without knowing the language of that country. You can go to a country and as long as you are friendly, in a decent area and can mime... you're probably set.

Nnnnot exactly. o_0 It's just common enough that people who don't speak English do usually try to learn it if they plan on working with people who speak English. Business people, people who plan to travel, etc. I doubt it's because they feel they shouldn't go anywhere without learning the native tongue, and more because being bilingual is a bonus with working, and because more places speak English commonly than not.

No, but I would expect government documents to be available in English. Especially if I am trying to become a resident and haven't gotten the hang of the language yet. Because last time I checked? This isn't the Matrix. People can't learn a language overnight. Just because someone asks for something in their native tongue or prefers to talk in their native tongue doesn't mean they aren't trying to learn English. It just means they would rather not, or they or uncomfortable doing so. That's their right, just as it is the right of an English-speaking person in an non-English speaking country to ask for someone who speaks English, to decline a conversation with someone they can't understand, or to talk to other English folks in English and not the language of the country they are in.

If they're being jerks about it, then a person has the right to refuse someone service or to say "I don't want to be part of this conversation". Very rarely is someone going to refuse to speak English out of sheer spite when it matters/is important. And if it is a situation that isn't of vital importance, who cares?

Besides, that's not what English-speaking countries do for minorities, anyhow. The idea of the majority "bending over backwards" for a minority group is rather laughable. Just because some people and the government try to be agreeable doesn't mean they're bending over backwards.

I see many stores here that have things printed in multiple languages. Especially stores downtown... lots of Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Russian and Spanish signs. Maybe that's unique to my city, but I doubt it. Not EVERYTHING is printed in Spanish (or any other language), just as not everything is printed in English in other countries.

... Where is Spanish an "official language"?

And yes, English IS a difficult language to learn; it's a weird language, and while you can sort of talk nonsense and still get your point across, it's not the ideal. Especially if you're looking for work, trying to make friends, etc. Any language can be difficult to learn, especially if you're older, have learning disabilities or just a plain old poor memory.

But I agree that there really is nothing wrong with learning a few words in another language. Back when the lines drawn between countries was much more vague, many people had to learn various dialects and languages. A country is simply lines on a map. What if, tomorrow, all those lines vanished and people could go anywhere... at any point?

 

I don't believe in forcing anybody to speak my language. When they come to my country, they should be free to speak whatever language they want. However, if they wish to communicate with me in my country, I should not be doing backflips to accomodate them.

One of my clients got mad at me for not speaking Spanish to him. I can acknowledge our language barrier, and I try to speak slowly in English, using Spanish words when I know them. He insists on speaking at full speed in Spanish, and gets angry at me or my Sales Reps if we do not understand him. If you ask him to speak more slowly or to give you a moment, he gets visibly annoyed, throwing up his hands dramatically, etc.

I don't want to tell him this so as not to lose a client - but it's extremely rude of him to come to my country and insist I learn his language to keep up. When my grandparents came to this country (while much older than he is) they spoke only Italian. No one went out of their way to accomodate them. They took the time to learn the language of the country they were living in.

I wouldn't go to Sweden or France and insist that the natives there who may not speak my language, speak it to keep up with me. It's rude. When you enter someone else's home, you don't make demands of them.

Similarly, when you go to another country, it is up to YOU to learn the local language. YOU should be adapting the environment - not asking the environment to adapt to you.

 

That really is rude - I've been really lucky that wherever we have been in Europe that with a few local pleasantries (Bonjour/s'il vous plaît/Merci*, Demat/mar plij/Trugarez, Ahoj/Proseem/Děkuji , Hola/Por favor/Gracias, Hello/Bitte/Danka) I have been able to communicate quite well with the locals by both of us slowing our speech down and trying to reduce the strength of our accents we have been able to communicate reasonably well (although communicating with a Czech guy in Prague using my basic German and his (what seamed) good German and basic English rather than Czech was rather odd!)


* The French (at least in Brittany) are an interesting lot - In Spain and the Czech Republic all the locals seam to go out of there was to practice their English the second the realise you are English, but the French require you to try some French otherwise they pretend to not understand a word you are saying. Fortunately when we went on holiday there both me and my brother had studied a bit of French at school (most of which I have forgotten) and were able to communicate okay (using the international language of pointing at stuff when we didn't know the words!) - it was then funny watching some other person walking up to a person you had been speaking with in fluent English and seeing them jumping in with English (not even trying "Bonjour, Parlez-vous anglais?") and getting "Je ne comprends pas" or "Ne gomprenan ket " back as the reply :lol:

 

I made the jump because I'd probably end up being called 'intolerant' and a 'horrible right winger' like in the other threads.

The reason Europe has to have signs in 4 different languages is because there are bucketloads of languages in Europe. Walk 100 kilometres, and guess what, you could be in a new country with a new language. Hence, English ended up being adopted as a Universal language. In the US, walk 100 kilometres, and you're still in somewhere where most people speak English. By making Spanish an 'official language', you end up making everybody learn 2 languages, and Spanish people can demand 'special treatment'. The fact is, when you become a citizen of a country, you are expected to follow the rules that the country is governed by. I'm all for minority rights, but not when we have to bend over backwards to cater to minorities.

Also, immigrant, dehumanising? It's a technical term refering to somebody who enters your country. I immigrated to the US as a visitor for a 3-week holiday. My heavens above, that's such a horrible term. It reminds me of the term 'aborigine' being called 'racist'. It's the noun form of 'aboriginal', that's it. They are an immigrant if they have come from another place. YOU are the one giving it the negative connotation.

 

Partly yes - if you wish to be able to communicate with everyone in your own country - however in most cases people tend to stay to the part of the county the speak the language of - e.g. in Switzerland there are four official language - French, German, Italian, and Romansh, of which only three are widely spoken (French, German, Italian) and unsurprisingly they are primarly located in there respective areas (French to the west, German to the North, Italian to the south) and when you are in the French speaking area you'll be fine with just French, etc. Each of these areas ends up with it's own TV stations, radio stations and media (plus in the German speaking areas German TV, French TV in the French speaking areas etc) too.

As for Spanish-speaking people demanding special treatment - erm No - they are demanding the same treatment, especially in areas where they are a significant minority (and therefore paying taxation just the same as everyone else), and in those areas Spanish speakers are likely to be in most professions anyway - there will be Spanish speaking police, doctors, dentists, politicians, builders, plumbers, 999/911 operators, directory enquires assistants, waitresses, barmen etc etc meaning no real effort is needed to accommodate Spanish speakers. The multi-national manufactures already cope with multiple languages on packaging (stuff in the UK is often labelled in either the North American combo (English, French and Spanish), Northern Europe combo (English, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Finnish), or Germanic Combo (English, Dutch/Afrikaans, German)) and instruction manuals.

One area the US is at a disadvantage at in the accommodating multiple languages is signage - in Europe most signs are pictorial meaning you can travel across Europe and understand most signs just fine regardless of your native tongue - yet US signs would be harder to understand (e.g. PED XING doesn't mean much to a none American). Where signs are textual they usually have the Latin alphabet too when in Greece or Cyrillic using countries to make it easier for the majority).

With modern technology it doesn't exactly require much work to produce stuff in two languages - and is something the UK government already manage to do, and in this case the second language is Welsh and nearly all Welsh speakers speak English too!

 

Yes, they are demanding special treatment. This is how liberals try and make excuses. They come to America knowing English is the de facto official language, and then they cause a stink over the fact everything isn't available in Spanish.

Drawing parallels between the US and Europe is stupid, it's like comparing oranges and textbooks. If you wanted to compare any country, look at Australia. We don't need symbols because most speak English. There are bucketloads of Chinese in our suburb, this doesn't mean the bus to Brisbane City has subtitles of 'ching chong City'.

The reason labels need to be produced in several languages is because they may end up going through countries where Spanish needs to be spoken. Considering that the US would have Spanish as its 'official language', shouldn't Spain make English it's official language too? It's only fair.

The point is, why should we have to change OUR way of life and make changes costing bucketloads of money just to please a minority?

 

Please tell me who is causing a stink over the fact that everything is not in Spanish? Source? Some random spanish-speaking dude or a respected US-based Hispanic organization? Because I've never seen that.

When things are in Spanish (or Mandarin, or Tagalog, or Korean) in the USA, it is because businesses want to cater to Spanish-speaking customers, or government wants to facilitate providing services to newer immigrants. And remember that the kids of those immigrants are assimilated--they are taught in English language public schools and learn to speak English fluently which their parents might not be able to. This has been going on in America for 200 years...nothing is different now.

 

I can see why languages are implemented as "official", either to save funds when having to translate legal documents to multiple languages, to encourage other language speakers to learn the tongue so that there is one "common" language (perhaps to avoid people splitting into different communities due to a language barrier), to improve a sense of patriotism to a country/area or perhaps as a precaution or out of fear when trying to preserve a local culture/language which may be being swamped by other migrant cultures/languages.

Then again it would often be debatable as to whether it is possible to recognise just one culture or ethnicity in an area as the "native" one, that all depends on how you view it, hence why often areas are recognised as bilingual (or more). Recognising just one could oust another which has just as much of a right to be part of the community. In my own opinion if a language is spoken by a majority or is historically present in an area it may well deserve an official status though while, in say Europe, that is often clearly defined, in the US and a lot of the Americas, it isn't always as easy to judge (since areas have been the territory of multiple cultures/language speakers in recent enough history). A national identity is important, but so is cultural diversity.

Basically I really don't think that there is a right answer to this, diversity is generally a good thing so having lots of languages is nice however it can also cause conflict and at the same time there is always the fear that an area may lose some traditions or identity, once again, these things may not always be viewed as bad or good but they are certainly debatable. Different communities, cultures and languages just have to learn to play nice.

 

National identity? I submit that there is only one uniting national identity that we could possibly have, that makes sense for us to have.

My great uncle was a member of a Scottish clan even though his last Scottish ancestor that I know of stepped off the boat sometime in the 1700s. The ancestor in question ended up in a county that was named, just for insult, after the greatest mass murderer against the Scottish people in history. He died fighting for the same monarchy that had subjected him to every thinkable type of humiliation because he had been forced to swear an oath of allegiance to it before being allowed to sail over here, and people then considered oaths of allegiance to be truly binding. That still hasn't been forgotten. We are still divided, in some parts of the country, over these seemingly antiquated differences. However, we have never forgotten why we originally came here. We have never forgotten what originally motivated us to get on the boat. That is what unites us with other Americans.

The idea that the USA ever had or ever will have one monolithic cultural identity always has been and always will be a load of poppycock, and it will never be the least bit credible to any thinking person, period.

The only thing that we have ever had, between each other, is, speaking in symbols, the Staff of Mercury. What binds this great nation together is trade and the desire to gain from it. What we eat or starve by is trade and how well we trade. Trade puts food on our table. Trade protects our borders from invasion. We are, therefore, by deeply instilled necessity, a very cosmopolitan country. We have to be a cosmopolitan country. If we tried to be anything BUT a cosmopolitan country, we would crumble into discord. The Staff of Mercury is the rod around which we are woven together, without which we fall to pieces.

The only way that you will ever get people to accept English as a dominant language is to simply point out the economic advantages of having it, not as a language of cultural or personal identity but as a tool. As a tool that we use for communicating with people whom we must work with, deal with, bank with and bargain with. Because we are seekers of opportunity and pursuers of opportunity, everyone who is truly, in the depths of their blood, an American will bite.

The ESL courses are popular for this very reason. They proclaim, "in America, the Land of Opportunity, this is the most valuable tool that you can have if you want to tap into the great riches that can be found in our great land." It is the Common Tongue of the Melting Pot. It is the language we use to communicate with each other at need or for gain.

But we even have classes in this country, being taught at community colleges and trade schools all over, that are supposed to train speakers of Southern dialect to speak in standard English. The classes are not aimed at teaching people standard American English for the sake of defining who they are. The classes are aimed at improving their odds of succeeding in a career.

And, in many states, we provide access to learning this language, free of charge! We see everyone who comes to this land as an Opportunity. That person is an Opportunity because that person comes here looking for Opportunity. That person wants to make money. That person wants to become famous. That person therefore wants to learn the common language of our country because relatively few people come to our country who have not come to our country looking for Opportunity.

It is around the Staff of Mercury that ancient enemies can coexist in peace. It is around the Staff of Mercury that cultures who otherwise have nothing to do with each other and no reason to like each other can live together as friends. It is around this principle that we are united and intertwined.

On the other hand, if you think in terms of "nativism" and "who was here first," consider doing some research on the land that you are living on right now. If the land belongs to whoever was here first, deed your house over to the Indian tribe that used to live there. When I see a plethora of "English Only" supporters giving the title of their land to the Indians who used to live on it, I will take them seriously.

But my ancestors bought their share of the land at a fair price. They lived by the Staff. They labored by the Staff. It was by the Staff, not by the Sword or by birth, that they gained the right to their land.

 

Sorry for being so intolerant, do you want me to use Chinese characters instead? *rolls eyes*

Well they aren't US Citizens. That's right shoppers, if you recently arrived in a country, you are not a US Citizen. And if they have gained US citizenship, they still have immigrated here. They won't be treated differently, they'll be treated equally, albeit they'll have the disadvantage of not speaking the language.

Yes, you might be in a Spanish area. Hop on a bus in my area, and you might end up having Chinese being the language spoken by the majority. Go to Sunnybank (a suburb full of Chinese immigrants in Brisbane), and there will be a lot of Chinese spoken. Doesn't mean that we need Chinese as a 2nd official language.

It is special treatment. You come to a country, you learn the language. If you do immigrate to the US and do not know English, you should accept that it will be difficult. I once went to Germany, and on a day I needed to buy lunch, I put on my best German, and ordered a sandwich. And yes, I got what I wanted. No, it wasn't the best German, but despite English being a 'world language', I did not expect the country I was visiting to bend over backwards for me, despite English being a compulsory part of the curriculum.

By comparison, here we are, Spanish immigrants, wanting Spanish to be the 2nd official language, despite the fact they RESIDE and play a role in the community, and possibly even have US CITIZENSHIP.

It doesn't happen regarding language here, but rather, religion. A police officer asks a woman to take off her burqa, all cops are racist. It's the liberal bend-over-backwards mentality. And no doubt the same thing happens in America.

If there are certain things which need to be catered towards newer immigrants (e.g. immigration forms), fine, let them be printed in those languages. But we're talking about every single official paper here. In effect, it would mean that the immigrants don't need to make any effort to learn English.