Monkey Uncaged: Can’t Butch and Femme Men Just Get Along?

It's more than just toleration. I understand that's the way a lot of people feel and I understand they're just being who they want to be. And there's a time and a place for it. It shouldn't be always and everywhere. That's the point I want to get across. I don't parade the fact that I have a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend but I won't lie about it. It's just another facet of who I am. It's when you flaunt your sexuality that I have a problem with it.

And frankly, you weren't toning it down. I remember your story greggers, you were completely denying it. THAT is unhealthy and I'm glad that you've stopped because it is soul crushing and you shouldn't have to go through that. I'm asking for moderation. That's why I don't go to work with a dog treat in my mouth. That may be who I am, but I don't want my professor to laugh me out of class. As a courtesy to other people, for myself, and for other furs, I only act like a furry with other furs, or in private. That way I don't give our community a bad name. That's just a simple courtesy and I think of my people as a decent group that deserve it. I just want the gay community to be able to do the same.

 

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This basically. I mean we can preach that people should be understanding and stuff, and they probably really should but in reality it's going to change very slowly. Some people will be able to coexist with people, others won't.

 

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This isn't what I'm talking about for one simple reason. This example is in a personal environment. 1 on 1 I have no problem with effeminate guys. My point is that you don't have to be flamboyant about it 100% of the time.

Let me put it this way. You can be really messy or really organized. If you work for a large corporation and you're really messy to the point where it hinders your performance, YOU GET FIRED. Maybe organization is required in some areas of life and you can't leave things all over the place all the time. If your house is messy then that's your own business. If people know your house is messy and they don't mind, then that's great! Enjoy your messy lifestyle. But it has no place in an office.

Apply that scenario to what we're talking about. If you're privately flaming then that's fine. If you're really effeminate in a large group of friends then that's cool. But not all the time. If you're being really effeminate around a large group of republicans, that will be their lasting impression of ALL homosexuals. Ideally yes I understand they shouldn't be stereotyping the LGBT community, but it happens. I act accordingly. That's what I'm driving at.

 

I guess I'm lucky? Where I grew up, machismo was the word of the day everyday for guys. I was little and still learning how to conduct myself around people my age, so it affected me. If I find myself in a group of guys that flaunt the masculine mold, it's not that hard for me to fit in. However I don't think that's it's necessarily the correct behavior for a professional environment. I don't think any behavior is , unless you're being rude or hateful. Or talking dirty. Guys do that any way, though. I've been there, trying to build a counter, and cleaning up the work area, and they start talking about getting that @#$$Y Yet they have a problem with effeminate guys, who aren't necessarily flaunting their orientation, they may be talking about the weather. :/

I've never said anything to date, but I always feel like telling them to take their little gig and (beep) off!

 

Though I do agree with Derek on his point about moderation, I am lucky because I am myself a very masculine-acting person, so I don't see this from the perspective of the person who is being asked to moderate themselves. That said, I don't necessarily agree that moderating one's furry tendancies is a good parallel for moderating one's flamboyance. Being a furry only really affects one's personal life, whereas being gay affects whether or not we can get married, how our relationships are perceived, etc. When two furries are out in public, unless they engage in some kind of furry play (I don't know what you would call that), it's impossible for others to know that they are furries and judge them for it. However, when two gay people or lesbians are out together, people can immediately tell that they are gay and judge them for it. For that reason, acceptance of the GLBT community is (I'm apologize in advance if this statement offends you) a more pressing issue than acceptance of furries.

Why do I bring that up? Because I have found that, in my personal experience, the best way to bring about gay acceptance is to show the straights that we are people too. That's one of the reasons why I am so open about being gay; to show my friends that one can be gay and still be "normal" (I am very straight-acting in both my demeanor and my hobbies, my tastes, my preferences, etc.). However, part of being human is being diverse as a community, and for that reason, we need to show the world that some of us are flamboyant and some of us aren't. Once people realize that their generalizations are wrong, they start to change their views. I know that is close to the kind of idealistic statement that Greggers made that you disagreed with, but in my experiences, that has been the case.

As Greggers said, trying to "tone oneself down" is very crushing to the soul, so we can't ask our flamboyant brethren to do that. The only option, in that case, is for us to just be ourselves, social consequences be damned! In the end, I think this will work itself out.

 

My problem with this argument is that it implies that being flamboyantly gay is a flaw, just like being unorganized is a flaw. Things like work performance, social interactions, etc. are not hindered by one's femininity or masculinity. Being unorganized does. That's not an accurate comparison.

Saying that a person who is very openly gay should keep it quiet because it's "not always appropriate" is basically saying that someone who is black should be less black when it's "not always appropriate." Flamboyancy, openness, homosexuality in general does not come with an off-switch.

 

That.

 

True, it's like saying a black person should dress, talk, and act more "white" or an Asian or Latino person shouldn't speak in their native language around white people so they can gain more acceptance. It kills you inside.

 

We have many problems to deal with. In my opinion the greatest and most constant problem is the poor representation of the community. If gay people appear and act like normal people, pretty soon we'll have the same rights and privileges as normal people. I respect the fact that you really want to drop the subject, but please don't forget about it.

I eat dog biscuits. But not around my non-furry friends. I wear a collar, fetch tennis balls, nuzzle people, and generally act like an animal. But NEVER around non-furs. Why? Because it's inappropriate and it reflects poorly on the community. Furries will never gain acceptance for 2 reasons: as a community they tend to be immature and lacking the organizational skills to really organize, and the community is too small to give people a diverse view of the entire fandom (all their conceptions of furries will probably be based on 1 person). So I completely agree. GLBT acceptance is far more important. I was simply using this as an example.

That's entirely true, but given that the gay community isn't incredibly visible and not in massive numbers, most straight people have a limited exposure. If the only gay person they know is flamboyant, then it makes it very difficult for masculine-acting gay men to gain any real acceptance. The image of the community is damaged by people acting inappropriately and enforcing stereotypes (hence why I hate pride parades so much). I understand though that if straight people get a significant exposure to the community then the stereotypes break down, because it really is a colorful spectrum of different personalities.

I don't mean to say that. Being flamboyant is in no way a flaw. It does however not have a place in certain settings. Being black is not a choice just like being gay is not a choice. I'm not asking someone to stop being gay or even stop being themselves. I just want them to recognize the fact that their actions represent our community as a whole and if they're displaying the more eccentric facets of their personality at the wrong time, it reflects poorly on the entire community.

 

This reminds me when I was told off by two lipstick lesbians for dressing like a man. I distinctly remember being told "you're perpetuating the stereotypes". At the time, I felt upset by this, but looking back on this, if the only reason they wear skirts and make up is to not be a stereotype, I feel sorry for them.

I wear suits in public and keep my hair short. I have a low voice and I drink pints. If people ask about my personal life, I tell them I'm a lesbian. These are things that I just do and are part of my life. So I'm a butch lesbian. And if people don't like it, I'm indifferent. I don't hurt people by being a stereotype, and neither would a flaming gay guy. If it's part of our character, if it's who we are and it's not hurting people, then why should it be hidden?

 

What is the point of a femme disliking a butch?
What is the point of a butch disliking a femme?
Can't we all just be one big happy GAY family?



I'm a femme lesbian and I love the butch ladies.
I've been told by butch ladies that I'm "acting straight" or "hiding myself." But nope! I'm just being me.

I guess I just don't get it. I mean, I read the article, and it has explanations of why people dislike each other, but I still don't really get it. I can't relate.

 

But how exactly can one person decide how the entire gay community is supposed to seem? Bigots are going to perceive the gay community poorly no matter what we do. Allow everyone to be themselves and focus on the issue at hand - equality. That is really the issue here. Definitely not whether or not a feminine guy is allowed to flail his wrists and say "Hey girl, hey!" At that point, you're really just splitting hairs.

 

But bigots don't understand equality. Hence the reason why they are bigots. If we appear to be equal then they will treat us as equals. Bigots will not see us poorly if we don't act that way. We need to make them understand that we're regular people just like them, not a bunch of freaks which is what they perceive us as now.

 

Bigots don't hate gay people because of how we act - they hate us because we're gay and they're not comfortable with it. You think that if we all started acting heteronormative every anti-gay activist would have an epiphany that we're able to be accepted? That's ridiculous. They would find another reason to hate us at that point.

I always have and always will stand by honesty being the best policy. Being honest with yourself and others is a much more productive way to live than changing your behavior just to appease others.

 

Bigots who hate femme gay guys because they are femme, go get in line with the anti-gay folks. They are the same to me. Hating on people who they do not KNOW just because someone is a little different.

It is nothing but a victim minded mentality, thinking someone else represents you. Suck it up. Only YOU represent you.

 

This is where I disagree with you. I don't think bigots will treat us as equals just because we fit in more. I think bigots will see us poorly regardless of how we act, because we still want to have same-sex relationships.

This reminds me of when straight people say, "I don't mind gay people, as long as they don't shove it in my face/ act gay around me / come on to me." Can you imagine if a gay person said, "I don't mind straight people, as long as they don't shove it in my face / act straight around me / come on to me"? It doesn't seem fair, because straight people constantly will loudly talk about their sex lives, publicly flirt and kiss and hold hands, and ask out people they assume are straight.

Why shouldn't gay people be able to be themselves, publicly hold hands and kiss loved ones, accidentally ask out straight people, or talk about their sex lives with friends?

The only reason I think gay people should ever have to alter their behavior is in the same situations that straight people should alter theirs. For example, if a person asks out someone of an incompatible sexual orientation, the person asked out should not be expected to hide their sexual orientation and pretend that the other person has a chance with them. Similarly, I don't think straight OR gay people should publicly have sex in broad daylight.