Religion and Homosexuality

I was raised Christian, and for the first 17 years of my life I pretty much firmly believed in it. I of course hated going to church, but I did believe in what I was being taught. When I was 17 and started to realize that maybe liking guys might not be just some passing thing (I thought I was bisexual at the time, but that's a whole different story) I did start to see Christianity in a different way. It seemed far more hypocritical to me, especially the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" deal. I still believed in god, but I no longer called myself a christian.

A few years later, and when I came out as gay, I did want to become a little more religious. I think the reason was to have a little bit of my old life back, and maybe to also prove to other people and myself that you can be gay and be a christian! I found an MCC church, which was really wonderful. It was nice to go to a gay-affirming church, and I met some truly wonderful people. However, it was slowly becoming apparent that I just really didn't believe in god anymore. This is for two very important reasons. Firstly, believing in an entity that has no real basis in logic makes no sense. I find it hard to believe that an all-knowing being resides over us. Secondly, so much of the church is hateful, and I have no desire to be a part of anything that is used as justification to hate others. I hope this made sense. Some of it still confuses me.

I am no longer religious, but I also don't call myself atheist. I'm nothing, just myself. Non-religious, I guess, but I don't want to put a label on my beliefs.

 

This is it.

These threads tend to get out of hand, so I'ma say my bit and butt out:

The concept of 'God' is unfathomable to me. I can't understand the idea, the concept, the need for there to be a God. Not just because I don't think there's a designer to the universe, but because the whole 'relationship with God' is basically, well, fascist. I mean, he's always right (so his ethics are unquestionable), reigns supreme over all and is sometimes cruel - but it's ok, because he really loves you and really knows what's best for you! (Which reminds me off partners suffering from domestic abuse.) However, if you don't love him, he will get really angry and throw you into a big pool of fire where you will burn for all eternity!

This relationship creeps me out a little bit.

I'm sure that believers are probably a little pissed off at me oversimplifying matters here, which is perhaps justified. But I've been doing some thinking lately about power in interpersonal relationships, and it struck me that God was a prime example of this, a sort of throwback to feudalistic social structures. Well, we have democratic societies now, shouldn't we have a more democratic vision of God?

Of course, there isn't a democratic version of God, because God, by his very nature, is a benevolent tyrant. Although I would much prefer a liberal, gay-friendly church to fundamentalist nutbags, the postulation of an omnipotent and omniscient God would still mean that we wouldn't be able to properly question their morals and actions - their morals are more palatable, but it's still a moral dictatorship.

Of course, and all-knowing, all-powerful God wouldn't need to be a democrat, because, well, he's all-powerful and all-knowing - he doesn't need other people! So what I'm questioning here is not so much the existence of God, but rather the... idea of power (if that's the right word) that worshipping any kind of God creates, and why I don't think it meshes well with our highest values.

At the risk of rambling into an incoherent mess, I'm going to attack this from a different angle: say you're like most of us, and you value free speech, inquisition and free will - basically, you're a good little democrat. Let's now say that you believe in God. How does this change things? Now, these values that you value are just sort of a fall back plan. Democracy is no longer the ideal society - it's just a fall back plan because humans aren't perfect. This sort of tyranny becomes the ideal relationship.

Realize that that wasn't really an attack on God or people who believe in him, people, it was just me thinking out loud for a second. If anyone has any questions, I'd do my best to clarify.

Onto myself - up until a few months ago, I was an atheist. I still, actually, am an atheist, but I've become very interested in Buddhist ideas lately; call me a skeptical Buddhist, if you will. There are still many issues, like karma and rebirth, which I question, but that's alright - and I'll tell you why:

In Buddhism, there is no creator god. The world has always been in existence, for an incalculable amount of time. There is an infinite number of worlds, as well. The Buddha said "There have been an infinite number of Buddhas before me, and an infinite number of Buddha's to come". (Or something to that effect; I can't find the quote :icon_bigg) That doesn't mean that this physical world has been in existence forever - it too is subject to the impermanence of all things, and has been destroyed and recreated countless times.

The lack of a creator god is one of the reasons why I find Buddhism more appealing, but another is the often repeated saying of the Buddha, that we must question his teachings before we apply to them to ourselves. It is something that is much more satisfying than the threats and blind dogma of some other religions which will remain unnamed.

Also, Buddhism is a sort of "do-it-yourself" religion. No one is responsible for your own salvation but yourself. There can be no reprieve from the task from outside forces. You will be taught, but finding the truth is ultimately your own responsibility.

Lastly, I have yet to meet anyone who will deny that the Buddha had real, hard-hitting questions on the nature of life, the impermanence of all things and the falsehood of all dualities. Even if I do not self-identify as a Buddhist 20 years from now, his teachings have changed the way I look at life and the world around me forever.

On LGBT rights: it's a complicated story. Wikipedia, for example, says the many Thai monastics in the Theravada tradition have banned gay monks from becoming ordained. (Theravada is arguably the most conservative branch of Buddhism and has a more rigid governing body). The Dalai Lama has said that he sees any type of non penile-vaginal sexual intercourse as sexual misconduct, which is a violation of the Third Precept, although he does condemn intolerance of gays. However, the Wikipedia page also says that homosexuality was widely practiced in Buddhist China and Japan, and that the Western priests were disgusted with the wanton displays. One of the leaders of the Nyingmapa tradition of Tibetan Buddhism has given his OK for same-sex relationships. (I would like to clear up that the Dalai Lama is not the 'Pope' of Buddhism. He is the leader of one of the four sects of Tibetan Buddhism, which happens to be the one that was in charge when the Chinese took over). Modern day Zen Buddhism is accepting of gays and transsexuals(click click). If anyone would like to read a particularly heartwarming story, here ya go.

The goal of Buddhism is detachment from all desires to realize an end to all suffering. If any relationship is selfish, abusive or generally unhealthy, it is to be avoided. This is my view of it. Some Buddhists, say Allen Ginsberg, have been extremely promiscuous gays.

I've been tooting Buddhism's horn a lot, but I don't think it's perfect. It was created by a human being and has been run by human beings ever since. More importantly, it allows questioning. The ethics are not divinely mandated.

However, having said all that, I don't look down on anyone who chooses to believe in God. Life is short and confusing, and I certainly don't claim to have all of the answers.

This was certainly a lot longer than I intended :dry:

 

Wrong.

I am a hardcore Catholic and I am a hardcore Gay too. I feel that most of the denial of God and most of the bitter comments and thoughts about God (not church) come from the lack if proper research. God, as a loving caring being, will not throw you away to "hell", he will let you choose where you want to go. God will not stop loving you ever, he is love. However if you choose to disown him and/or live your life away from "do others what you would like for them to do to you", don't lie, kill or steal.

There is something called the natural law which is basically don't lie, kill or steal. Which is basically the three things that carry on many other "sins" which would exclude you from going to "heaven".

About homosexuality and church: They are institutions. As institutions, they are most likely wrong in some things, they are most likely right in others. There is no reason or no need for you to go to a church or be part of one, God is not exclusive. You can live a happy life being gay and being responsible, having a relationship with God who doesn't dislike you or disown you because you're Gay, he made you that way.

He made me that way.

 

I totally agree with Jede. I'm a Southern Baptist, and although I've been to churches where the pastor jumps up and screams and cries, I've really never felt attacked before. They've talked against it, but never, ever have I seen someone actually "get the Holy Spirit" while talking about how being gay is wrong. Being gay is no different than divorce, and the Bible even says that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy. I stopped going to church around here because I used to be ashamed of being gay, but now, I feel that I'm on the right path. Others' should be more worried than I am. It's a shame that so many people feel intimidated by Christians because true Christians accept people for who they are and where their heart is. Like he said, God is love. As a Christian, I can honestly say I try my hardest not to judge people. I'll leave that to God. I would NEVER attack someone, regardless of their beliefs. I would be lying if I said that believing in God and being not straight is easy. And since this is a forum and everyone will read this, before you point any fingers at us for believing God or saying rude or nasty comments about it, remember how YOU feel when people bag you for being part of the GLBT community.

 

I am personally not into organised religion, but respect the fact that other's do and will defend there right to do so.

For me organised religion is an outdated way of controlling the masses so they are easier to control and bend to the wills of a selected few. Thankfully this is not happening as much on a country wide scale except in certain regions of the world. Just my take on it.

I think allot of religions are starting to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century and accept a person's sexuality no matter what it is.

 

If I'm honest ever since I was little and went to a Church Of England School even though I was told all about the Bible I coulden't help feeling cynical about it especially when people tried to pass it off to me as history or fact because my mind requires the information behind it and I never got it. I've never viewed it as more than stories on how people should live happily I've never seen it as fact and so have never been a true Christian ever... so pretty much I don't care what the bible says and even if I did the New Testiment pretty much outlaws the old testiment so God should therefore "forgive your sins".

Thats my opinion on Christianity anyway but I'm afraid I don't know much about any others other than Buddhism and that is pretty much the DIY religion so theres no problems there...

 

They can mix, if you actually know what the Bible is talking about.

They don't mix if you're an ignorant sack and read text that can be thousands of years old, that has also been translated and translated over and over again into modern English/Spanish/French/etc and take it as it says literally, even though a 2 year old can see that almost every religious doctrine over 500 years old uses metaphors to express a situation.

For example, the Bible calls homosexuality an (and I quote) "abomination." In English, that is a sinful, horrid act. In the language the Bible was originally written in the word for "abomination" does NOT mean sinful, or horrid. It just means "against tradition." And homosexuality is an unintentional act against tradition that you cannot prevent. Doesn't make it punishable. Just like how it's an "abomination" to wear more than one kind of fabric, or to plant two different seeds near each other, or to eat shellfish, or to eat pork. It's not a sin to do those things. You won't go to hell. It's just against tradition. Huge difference that idiots don't understand.

In fact, there are multiple different translations of the Bible, and with the regards of homosexuality, I will use a often varied translation regarding the matter. In one passage, it says a person wants to kill another for being gay. In a different Bible, it says they want to meet them for being kind.

Also, Sodom and Gomorrah weren't destroyed because they were "gay." They were destroyed for being rude and wanting to gang rape the angels. And just like every other city, common sense says they were mostly straight. What makes this even more plausible besides common sense is the fact that people did not travel far. For an entire city to be gay, people from all over the world would have to flock to that city. People very rarely left their own small little town way back then. Also, how are tribes in what is now Germany going to know about the cities? There was no internet. There was no mail. There was no way of knowing.

This entire rant is from a Christian stand-point obviously, I was raised Lutheran. So don't try and reply going "WELL THE KORAN SAYS..!" because I will reply calling you idiot without reading the rest.

Homosexuality and religion do mix, if you know what religion is really saying and not taking it literally.

I'm Agnostic by the way.

 

oh one more thing I forgot eatting swine is a sin, ad who could resist a BLT....damn those are good!!!

I think I"m gonna go make me one right now

 

Howdy, Cowboy -

My name is Mike. I am a priest in the Episcopal Church and in the process of coming out. I am out to my wife and my bishop among others. We are working on the plan to tell the congregation. When i told my bishop and said something about leaving, he said "why do you presume that you would have to leave?"

All of that is to say that yes, there are denominations that are not only accepting of homosexuality but are also on the fringes of celebrating it. The Episcopal gay&lesbian advocacy organization is called integrity.

And yes, there are sound biblical and theological responses to the sexuality debate. If you'd like to talk more about them, feel free to send me a pm. A lot of this is discussed in my wall posts as well.

Peace, Mike