1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Do you consider it transphobic...

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by BreezyB, May 17, 2021.

  1. Unsure77

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    410
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    And that’s exactly what I don’t want to do to some woman.

    To be honest, I just assumed trans people wind up dating people who are bi or pan. Or maybe there are lesbians out there for whom it’s all about gender presentation and not about body parts. But, it’s just not me and I know it’s not me. It will never be me. And if shaming and name calling could make it me, I would be a heterosexual southern baptist wife and mother of 2.5 kids with dog right now. As it stands, I’m a lesbian with a dog and a therapist.
     
  2. Mihael

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    3,049
    Likes Received:
    704
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Delicate subject. It's easy to come across as offensive either way. I wonder if it really is a problem that trans people pressure themselves onto gay men and lesbian women. None of the trans peple I know and am friends with would disrespect a "no, I'm not interested". Neither would I.
     
  3. Denial

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2018
    Messages:
    520
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I'm not sure what it would be considered but I would be happy to date a trans woman.
     
  4. clockworkfox

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    60
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I have a bit of an issue with this statement.

    I respect pansexuals, 100%. I have dated bi and pan people, the vast majority of my friends are bi and pan, and technically I am open to dating anyone if the attraction is there, because I believe in the philosophy of "hearts, not parts". But the idea that pansexuality is inclusive of trans people, while other sexualities are not, is inherently transphobic.

    Let me reiterate, before anyone jumps down my throat about this one: the idea that pansexuality is inclusive of trans people, while other sexualities are not, is inherently transphobic. I am NOT suggesting or implying in any way that pansexual PEOPLE are transphobic, or that pansexuality is transphobic - that would be ridiculous and wrong. But it does bother me that there is this pervasive idea out there that pansexuality is THE ONLY sexual identity that is inclusive of trans people.

    Attraction is a complex thing. For some people, parts are a big deal, and that's ok!! I don't think that's inherently a problem, we can't really control what turns us on and what doesn't, and I wouldn't immediately think it were transphobic of someone to not want to date me because of that. But if your entire sexual identity is built around the idea of parts, maybe that needs some evaluation?

    I think the real question is, how much of an individual's decision to date or not date trans people is based on assumptions about our bodies, as opposed to evaluations of our character as individuals? That's much more telling as to whether transphobia is at play. I wouldn't jump into dating someone who fetishized me any quicker than I'd chase after someone who wasn't feeling it with me because of my body.
     
  5. clockworkfox

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    60
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Some people
    This is very honest, which is something that I appreciate above all. If you are aware that parts are a big deal for you, I wouldn't say that your actions are transphobic. We can't control what turns us on, and we shouldn't be expected to.
     
  6. Mihael

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    3,049
    Likes Received:
    704
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    But body parts can be attractive. I don't personally have a genital preference, but the body and body parts play a huge role for me in sexual attraction. If it were about character, it would be called friendship. I wouldn't blame anyone for being turned on by just some sexual characterostics, not all. It's just how humans are wired (me included in some sense). I think it's unfair to say that it's morally wrong that someone has some sort of sexual preferences, taste and that it's not susceptible to change or whether you like a person or not, or making the attraction about valuing somebody as a person - they're simply two very different things.

    However, I have to say this whole thread doesn't feel too pleasant when taken out of context of the OP and put into my context for example. Like, nobody speaking up is to blame for what they feel, it's just that as a trans person you get this message that you're not desirable, because you either lack some physical characteristics or the personality and behaviour of your assigned gender (I have always been masculine). This overall climate and the quantity of such messages in the gay community make me feel very unwelcome, even though not all gay folks aren't into trans people and I probably could find someone if I tried. I will reiterate - neither I nor many other trans folk are interested in pressuring people with opposite genital preference (or any other preference) into dating them, I am personally interested in building a relationship that works for both people involved. I have no interest in forcing someone to do anything. And this overall climate does quite large disservice to trans people like me.
     
  7. Mihael

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    3,049
    Likes Received:
    704
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    *you get this messege all the time, reapeatedly, that kind of talks are everywhere

    Maybe it's time to accept that trans people exist and are what they are, and move past it to approaching the subject as a part of life, not like we were some kind of monsters to be feared of and that want to do nothing but attack someone in some way.
     
  8. Unsure77

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    410
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    There’s absolutely nothing wrong with you. You are valued and valuable. You are how you are meant to be, and again, I think it would be great to have some trans friends given the opportunity. You are welcome and wanted. It’s just for some number of people, you’re not going to be romantically compatible and that has nothing to do with your value or worth or you being a “monster”. I’m quite certain there are loads of women who would look at me and say “nope”. In fact, literally all of my dearest friends would say “nope”. That doesn’t mean they don’t love me as a friend and value me as a human being. It means I’m not what they need romantically. Everyone is different.

    You and I both just have to find our person who we ARE what they want romantically. I’m sure for you, they’re out there!

    I guess that’s what I’ve been trying to get across. Maybe badly. And I did react badly to being called a transphobe.
     
    #28 Unsure77, May 20, 2021
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
  9. Unsure77

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    410
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    And you’re right. Trans people are just people. You should be treated and spoken about as such. You make a lot of good points.
     
  10. chicodeoro

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2020
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    947
    Location:
    London
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    All but family
    100% I agree with this, Unsure. The idea that having a sexual preference could be conflated to transphobia is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

    Beth
     
  11. Lemony

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2020
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    138
    Location:
    Australia
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people
    please dont tell me this is directed at me..:cold_sweat:.. I said in general if that’s how you feel do it. I just think there is no need to say “I refuse to date trans people.” In reference to the original post on here not to you. Sorry if it came across that way.
     
  12. clockworkfox

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    60
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Some people
    A LOT of good points being made here!! As for me personally...it IS about character, 100%. I can't sustain a romantic/sexual relationship if there's nothing deeper there than physical attraction - it isn't worth the time to me, and it would be TERRIBLY draining, I presume.

    That's what it comes down to, and that isn't transphobic - there are a lot of factors at play in attraction, the vast majority of which we have absolutely no control over.
     
  13. Unsure77

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    410
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I do, in fact, avoid dating trans people. And no, it doesn't make me transphobic. Even the trans people here are saying it's not transphobic.

    I think you're not thinking about it from a gay person's perspective (or even a trans person's perspective) all the way through.

    Adults (particularly middle aged adults like myself) are typically dating to look for sexual partners. (which is completely different from just looking for friends. I'm not talking about junior high where "dating" consists of going to the movies or sitting together at lunch. I'm talking about adult dating where you're looking for a sexual partner). Some number of lesbians are averse to penises in sexual situations. Some number of gay men only want to have sex with people with penises. And no, that is not my only criteria, but it is a non-trivial one. It is completely inappropriate to ask a trans person what they have going on under their clothing and (as has been pointed out in this thread), it's cruel (for everyone involved) to make a trans person think you're interested and then dump them when discoveries are made. Therefore, no, I do not date trans people. Just to save everyone involved grief. I doubt that I am alone. And no, that does not make me transphobic. Even the trans people here are agreeing that's not transphobic. And it's insulting to say gay people are transphobic for feeling that way when it's just how some of us are wired. Some of us have struggled to come to terms with that wiring our entire lives and you're just piling on by doing that.
     
    #33 Unsure77, May 21, 2021
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
  14. Mihael

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    3,049
    Likes Received:
    704
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    :slight_smile:
    Yeah. Things got heated.
    I thibk the problem isn't particular people but how many times things like that get reiterated. At least in my opinion. Or... idk... are there a lot of trans folks who act pushy toward gay folks and call them transphobic?
     
  15. Lemony

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2020
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    138
    Location:
    Australia
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people

    I never said it was transphobic and I completely understand what you’ve said.

    I was just saying that it possibly could come across that way if one was for instance used it in horrible way such as super straights or repeatedly saying it with no context. None of what I said was at you it was to the original post. I apologise if I upset you.
     
  16. CorporateGames

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2021
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    London
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Some people
    This is the equivalent of saying that you'd avoid dating a cis man if there was a possibility he had ED or was in an accident and had to involve penile reconstruction surgery. As far as I know dating involves more than sex, and a lot of compromise and getting to know someone sexually is part of that.

    I understand you are not attracted to vaginas, but most Trans men either do not own one anymore or do not wish it to be interacted with in a typical way. Prosthetics, surgeries, you name it. How is avoiding all trans guys and/or avoiding mentioning that an interaction with a penis is important to you a better option than talking about it?

    You don't have to put it the way you phrased it. "How do you like to have sex?" is a much better question.

    I'm a trans gay top, and while I understand a lot of people will reject me throughout my life for various reasons (trans or not), I simply refuse not to say something here. I'm the first person who doesn't like my original plumbing and is actively working on changing it + I use prosthetics in bed.

    We are not trying to force you into liking female genitalia, hell I don't even like it myself, so please don't make it about gay men's fight vs trans men's fight for rights and recognition - we can coegsist peacefully and are supposed to be allies. A lot of trans people look up to gay men's struggle and fight. Hell some people like me are both trans and gay.

    Please just try to keep an open mind.
     
    #36 CorporateGames, May 21, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2021
  17. CorporateGames

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2021
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    London
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Just to add, since I realize I flipped the genders here and assumed you were male - apologies .I'd like to note that this reply still translates in the case of trans women.
     
    #37 CorporateGames, May 21, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2021
  18. PatrickUK

    Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2014
    Messages:
    6,943
    Likes Received:
    2,359
    Location:
    England
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    It's important to stay calm as we discuss this important and sensitive issue and resist the idea of labelling people or hurling insults. There is a lot of merit to this thread and some good points have been raised, but if it gets nasty posts will be removed or the thread will be closed.

    Here's a scenario I would put to members to consider...

    You are gay or lesbian and meet someone of the same sex at an LGBT friendly venue. You find them physically attractive, get into conversation with them, exchange numbers and meet up again and become even more attracted and connected to them. You arrange further dates and the relationship develops and you realise you are falling quite hard for this person. After a number of dates things are clearly getting very serious, so they decide to be brave and tell you they are trans. Until this point you have been completely unaware.

    Does anything change? If so, what is it that has changed? Does the attraction and connection you've clearly felt for this person suddenly die? Does your mind immediately switch to thoughts about genitalia and sex? I'm not asking these question to challenge or confront members, but to genuinely understand the issues and try to further this discussion without lots of heat and acrimony. I think it's worth exploring.

    Speaking for myself, I would want the relationship to continue despite the revelation and to try to work out how intimacy might still be possible, if/when we are both ready for that. It wouldn't undermine my identity as a gay man to allow the relationship to continue and flourish.

    What about you?
     
  19. Lemony

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2020
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    138
    Location:
    Australia
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people
    It I was in that situation even though I am bi,

    I would do what ever it took to be with the person I have fallen for.
     
  20. LostInDaydreams

    Moderator Full Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2016
    Messages:
    4,300
    Likes Received:
    2,096
    Location:
    UK
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    This is a really interesting question.

    I agree that continuing the relationship wouldn’t undermine my sexual identity.

    No, I don’t think that the emotional connection would suddenly die, but I would have concerns about the feasibility of the relationship continuing. As somebody who has had an intimate relationship with a (cis) man and who continued to be intimate with him whilst questioning my sexuality and beyond, I would be bringing that “baggage” into this scenario. Whilst there was definitely always something missing in that relationship, the intimate side wasn’t always unpleasant. Though, at other times it felt close to torture. As I have said elsewhere, that experience has informed my understanding of my sexuality and my knowledge of what I do and do not find physically attractive. However, I am also aware that a person’s gender identity does not mean they necessarily have a particular physical trait and everyone is different, so I guess it would depend on the other individual involved.