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Lesser-known gender identities/sexualities, and all others

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by AnAtypicalGuy, Nov 24, 2016.

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  1. Chip

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    I think there's a miscommunication here. As I have said dozens of times (perhaps more), people are absolutely free to choose any label that speaks to them.

    At the same time, as an organization, EC owes it to the community we serve to ensure that people get reliable, evidence-based, factual information on which to base the decisions that each person, individually, must make for him or herself.

    There are actually a lot of comments on threads, and countless more PMs and emails from people who genuinely appreciate having accurate, evidence-based information to consider when exploring themselves. There may be other people who find this information utterly unhelpful. Those people can review and reject what is offered; nobody is subjecting anyone to policing of labels or anything of the sort.

    So far from being intended to be hurtful, this information is there for those who wish to make use of it. For those who don't... they are absolutely welcomed to use whatever labels they wish. Again, the one place where we have drawn the line is when someone advocates factually for something for which there's no actual factual information on which to base it. Talking about unrecognized identities, and presenting them as factual, accepted identities when they are not does a disservice to those who are looking for accurate, validated information on which to base their self-identity.

    We still have the conversation, and people say "I identify as lithro-gray-magical-unicorn-sexual" (or whatever) and it works for me", and nobody's saying they aren't entitled to label themselves that way. It's just... we can't have people representing that (or whatever) label to others as validated and widely recognized, because to do so is disingenous and deceptive.

    Thus the conundrum where it sounds like there's disrespect of someone who uses an unrecognized label when, in fact, there's plenty of respect for the right to use that label... but a recognition that promoting unrecognized labels does not serve a helpful purpose and, on the contrary, tends to confuse vulnerable people more.

    It actually *is* a problem to propagate information that isn't factual. It degrades the overall level of knowledge. And in large part, the US is in the dire situation it currently is in part because a large portion of the population either doesn't have the skills to discern factual information from unsubstantiated theory, or has made a conscious and intentional effort to ignore the facts.
     
  2. Chip

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    Bisexuality is in a completely different category from unrecognized labels.

    Bisexuality has been studied and validated in thousands of studies over decades. Nobody credible questions the concept that sexual orientation exists on a spectrum, that most people exist somewhere on that spectrum, and that typically a small portion are at one end or the other.

    Additionally, I don't think it's accurate to say that "most" people don't think LGB people are normal and healthy. In most of the studies looking at this in the past 5 years, people accept homosexuality and bisexuality as normal and natural. (Crazy wing-nut Christians excluded.) Transgender folks still have a ways to go; they are still in the minority as far as acceptance, but the level of acceptance for trans individuals is increasing significantly as well.

    It's unfortunate that a number of people, based on their own experiences rather than facts, have a misperception of the validity of bisexuality. This is further complcated by the fact that many gay people, in the "bargaining" stage of the coming out process, mis-identify themselves as bisexual (probably not consciously in most cases.) This leads others to assume that all bi people are this way, when, in fact, it's only a small percentage.

    I just want to clarify this point so it doesn't get confused with the rest of the discussion.
     
  3. Bobsleigh1

    Bobsleigh1 Guest

    If you're talking to me (which i'm honestly struggling to tell??? Are you?), then, really, i'm not trying to guilt trip anybody.
    Emotions are important anyway; A great chunk of what these mods are saying is going to affect people emotionally. Negatively.
    All i'm saying, with a definitely "fact-based argument", is that the negativity you three are stirring really isn't necessary. You aren't helping anyone by invalidating people who feel comfortable using the labels they do. It's likely that it perhaps it makes you feel satisfaction stating your opinions like they're fact, but it's still not helping anyone. Only hurting. That is fact.

    It shouldn't bother you so much that other people are using certain labels, other people's choices shouldn't bother you so much, it's their life.
    You aren't, like you claim, trying to help people by locking away these other labels, labels that have the potential to really make them feel comfortable with their identity and accept themself and find others like them, from the people who could be helped by them, you're trying to change other people's opinions to match your own. So that you don't have to deal with people you personally believe to be wrong whilst having no proof against their case. I'm not trying to change the way you live, the way you identify or the way you feel about the label your are happy using. I'm simply asking you not to state those opinions where they may cause hurt.

    Again, thank you.
     
  4. Irisviel

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    Stating facts is not being hurtful. To help people one should provide real information, not make up things in order to escape the complexity of the reality. Evidence is not about belief, and real help is not about misinformation.

    I'm not invalidating anyone's right to call themselves whatever they like. I speak against giving credibility to misinformation, which is then used for comunity based "diagnoses" on the gender identity subforum, where confused people are harmed by bad advice. It is really a harmful thing happening on EC in that section, because all it does is produce more confused teenagers.
     
  5. Renegades

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    Gender- Genderflux. To me, this is kind of a more extreme version of genderfluid. My gender is pretty much all over the place. I wear the same thing most days, which is skinny jeans, Converse, and a tank top with a binder. I can feel a bit masculine some days, and other days my dysphoria is so extreme that I don't feel comfortable no matter what I'm wearing. Other days, I feel completely fine with female everything, aside from gender roles/stereotypes. It's pretty hard to explain. And with pronouns, any pronoun works since I'm pretty non-binary and DGAF.

    Sexuality- Homoflexible. Most people see me as female, which I am fine with, so I tell everyone that I am gay. But I technically identify as homoflexible, cause I haven't 100% ruled out being with a guy. I just don't think it is very likely.

    Overall, I don't really care what pronouns or gender people put on me, because I am pretty comfortable with myself. I don't really feel the need to tell people that I am genderflux, because I am fine with female pronouns being used with me. The only thing I ever request from people is not to set me up with guys, and call me Jess instead of Jessica cause it isn't as feminine.
     
  6. Bobsleigh1

    Bobsleigh1 Guest

    Firstly, i think i may have come off as angry at you??? Yeah, i hadn't meant for that... :eusa_doh:
    I completely understand that you want to support factual information and that information only, but, to quote yourself, "people can review and reject what is offered; nobody is subjecting anyone to policing of labels or anything of the sort."
    So, why are you trying to keep the possibilities of the lesser-known labels which they'll potentially find helpful hidden away form the people who come here looking for support?
    (I know wording it as a question makes it sound like i'm "sassing" you or something.. i don't mean for it to...)
    Also, what would you deem a factually supported sexuality/gender identity? Just genuinely curious. Because, for me personally, just having people genuinely (Yes, genuinely; if it's something like... what was it... "lithro-gray-magical-unicorn-sexual"... the heck is that meant to mean...? I think you may have misunderstood a troll on that one... i mean, it's got 'unicorn' in it... i don't think that's an appropriate label to base the whole communities of lesser known labels on if you're really serious about that one...) relate to and find comfort in these labels is real enough for me. Not everyone has to agree with me on that or anything... i'm really just trying to come a "agree to disagree" kind of ending to this conversation rather than adjusting your views... i just find people are usually happiest when others think that way. I hope you understand??? I honestly just don't want anyone feeling bad... including me i guess, despite not really identifying as non-binary or anything. :confused:
    I fell like this got confusing to some degree so let me summarize it:
    I merely don't think hiding lesser-known labels is necessary, people can ignore them themselves if they don't find it helpful.
    I (personally) don't need facts like the ones you're looking for behind these labels, as long as they are helping people feel comfortable with themselves and happy, then they're helpful and valid enough not to need to be brought down or hidden away.
    And, understand your intent, i just don't think it necessary when other more helpful things could be said on a (potentially) peaceful thread like this one. But i know what you're trying to say and i respect that, i guess i'd just rather it wasn't said in a negative way but i probably shouldn't have gotten involved with hostility, or at all really.. ugh, what i'm saying is probably completely unnecessary too, isn't it? You can go about your day, i feel like i've made a bit of a mess out of this thread, oops. :icon_redf

    ---------- Post added 26th Nov 2016 at 12:22 AM ----------

    I'm sorry but i really don't understand what you're getting at and, i don't mean to sound rude but, i don't want to continue this conversation... but i have started something apparently so i guess, respectfully, i should???
    Going to make this as short as i can:
    Firstly, what you're doing is not stating facts, it's stating an opinion. Admittedly, so are we all, but at least we have good intent.
    Secondly, why do you get to judge what's real information and what's not? If reality is so complex, why is it not possible that their are more labels and what is your proof against them aside from that there is no proof for them? Also, why would using a label that makes you happy and comfortable make reality any simpler for anyone?
    "Evidence is not about belief, and real help is not about misinformation." Then what's your "evidence" against people's labels that they genuinely feel they relate to and therefore are? what classes what we are stating as "misinformation"? We are defining these labels correcting, are we not? So, what's so misinformative about them?
    You don't "diagnose" a sexuality or a gender, what are you trying to say? How is it a harmful thing if it's making people comfortable with themselves? How are they leaving these forums more confused than before by finding a label they can relate to?

    And, on a side note, why so hostile?
     
  7. Chip

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    Because they aren't validated labels. There's zero evidence that they exist standalone; in fact, nearly all of them fit neatly within the spectrum of already-defined labels.

    Additionally, some of the labels do an enormous disservice when adopted; one example is someone who has a strong adversity toward sex labeling as asexual. As I stated above, that's on the spectrum of psychological disorder and likely has origin to it that should at least be examined and explored. Unaddressed, there are a whole host of other physiological problems that can develop from the underlying symptoms that likely cause the adverse feelings. There are dozens of other examples.

    It was sarcasm. I likely have a pretty good idea of the difference between trolling and genuine adoption of unrecognized identities.

    The point is... a factually supported identity is one that has some combination of (a)broad consensus of acceptance among those who work with sexual identity on a daily basis (therapists, counselors) or (b) quality, published scientific research based on methodologically sound research.
     
  8. AgenderMoose

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    *looks back into this thread to see how things are going*

    *skims through and sees arguments, and it somewhat looks like my statements had a hand in sparking them* ...welp. This sucks.

    I'm just gonna prepare for this thread to be closed due to The Discourse™. Dunno what I expected, really, it always seems to end like this. Well, whatever the case, I hope this quells one way or another. Later folks.
     
  9. Bobsleigh1

    Bobsleigh1 Guest

    Nah, i mainly sparked it to be honest... :icon_redf
    ...
    I have regrets by posting here. :bang:
     
  10. Creativemind

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    I expect the same. This topic never ends well on EC.
     
  11. Bobsleigh1

    Bobsleigh1 Guest

    "nearly all of them fit neatly within the spectrum of already-defined labels", I've definitely noticed this too. i just don't know why it would cause a problem for anyone for people to use them. And, since the people using these labels aren't (intentionally... 0_0) bothering anyone else, there seems to be no need for them to be attacked by others for their harmless (and valid, if it's genuinely how they feel) identity.
    Heh... Is this making sense...?

    Yeah, i figured it was sarcasm...
    So... a factual identity is just one that is accepted by professionals who have done the research and have the experience...? That makes a lot of sense, these people know what they're doing. I'm not going to go around telling people that they're identities aren't real until it's disproved though, you know...? Of course, i'm not going to go around screaming "THEY'RE REAL, I SWEAR, IVE SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES" either, not until it's proved. Which... you know.. personally i think is... pretty reasonable and the most peaceful way to go about it...?
    I'm really just trying to keep peace and defend the way people identify. :grin: ah, how i've messed up this innocennt thread.. ohh dear...
    How about we all just agree to disagree, yeah...???

    ---------- Post added 26th Nov 2016 at 12:46 AM ----------

    I hope this gets closed so i can go to bed... :help:
     
  12. RainbowGreen

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    I'm just sad to see how this ended up.

    I try to keep an open mind on this kind of subject, because I know the human mind is really hard to grasp fully.

    I'm also one to think that your label can be useful even if it only precises an existing one. For example, demisexuality, homo/heteroflexible, demiboy/girl etc. So what if you need to explain it to people or if you only use it within the community? If it makes people connect more with their identity, who am I to judge?

    As far as I know, no one's advocating to identify as potatosexual, here. For anyone feeling down about the outcome of this thread, don't feel bad. It was started with good intend.
     
  13. Bobsleigh1

    Bobsleigh1 Guest

    :eusa_clap
     
  14. Chip

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    There's really no substantive disagreement.

    People can use any label they want.

    Some labels are grounded and have some basis and objective, reproducible standards on which to evaluate, speak about, replicate, and meaningfully communicate about.

    Other labels have no recognition or standards, no consistency of meaning, and carry no meaning outside of what a tiny handful of people have agreed, among themselves, on their meaning.

    The only dispute seems to be that some people don't like the fact that some labels have been validated and others have not.

    People are encouraged to understand the difference, and in any case, welcomed to choose whatever they like.

    People who expect these differences to not be addressed when bringing up this discussion in a community that is committed to ensuring that information disseminated is evidence-based may not be happy, but the outcome will always be predictable.
     
  15. Bobsleigh1

    Bobsleigh1 Guest

    Don't state your personal opinions and theories as fact, the dispute doesn't even have anything to do with whether these labels have been "validated" or not, people are purely angry over your blatant and unnecessary disrespect for these people. I think we can all agree that disrespect towards anyone is something fair to be bothered by.

    The conversation ended Chip, i tried to end it once already, let's just let it go. No one wants to argue about this anymore, and I'm not going to continue checking this thread for posts anyway.
     
  16. Irisviel

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    We do not assume things to be real because there is no evidence they aren't. That's how faith works. We only assume that something is real when there is evidence that it is, rhats how science works.
    I am not stating opinions, I am stating what is currently a state of knowledge of human sexuality/gender. You can try to make yourself happy by adopting any label, but it has to be confronted the moment you suggest using it to anyone else that comes here to ask for advice, because offering advice based on belief is just harmful when we operate in the realm of factual concepts.

    Over many decades, homo, bi and asexuality have been proven to exist, and well studied to exclude their being disorders. Same goes for being transgender, regardless whether you define dysphoria as a condition or some disorder, there is neurological and psychiatric research behind it.

    Non binary however is based purely on loose interpretation of gender, on belief that gender is a spectrum (it isn't), and all evidence I've come across so far suggests all those labels are a result of not being able to differentiate between gender expression and identity.

    Now, why is it important to argue against those labels? Because coming out as trans, social transitoning etc. is a huge, life changing deal, that can potentially distort someone's well being to great extent. And when someone isn't transgender, they should not go through that because they were misinformed and pushed into wrong direction - alternatively, that they settled on some label and only delayed their self discovery that they are indeed transgender (mtf/ftm). Or, people are told they are genderfluid while they simply are crossdressers, and instead of seeking help to live happily as such, they get to deal with gender identity confusion.

    And yes, gender identity, sexuality, all can be diagnosed. Not here, because even if this forum was crowded by doctors, offering psychological help via public forum would be ethically dubious... however it can be explored and yes, confirmed by a professional. Here, we should point to knowledge and facts, in order to help people decide what to do to solve their problems. They won't be solved with belief-based, unsupported view of human sexuality/gender.

    Bottom line is, correcting misinformation is not being hostile or hurtful. I'm sorry if anyone finds this to be so, but that is simply not true.
     
  17. Chip

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    I haven't stated any opinions or theories. I've talked about what is currently accepted, what has been validated, and what has not. That isn't opinion.

    I'm sorry you see it as disrespect. It is not intended to be taken that way.

    Sorry, I wasn't aware that you have been bestowed the unilateral ability to determine when a conversation has 'ended'.
     
  18. AgenderMoose

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    Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this thread

    *cough* I mean please someone close the thread. This is getting toxic and I can't stand seeing a dead horse getting beaten to death for a 45th time.

    Was a shame for this to get as messy as it did when it was opened with good intentions.
     
  19. PatrickUK

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    There is an extremely fine and delicate line that we must tread on the issue of labels. It's not easy, but we do our best on EC and I am confident that we are more accepting, accommodating (and safer) than many other places on the internet when it comes to this issue. Nobody who joins EC is told to conform and nobody is rejected for identifying as anything other than LGBT.

    We know how important it is for people to feel connected to a label and identity that fits - for them. For most people, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Straight works just fine, when it comes to sexuality. It may not be an entirely perfect fit, but how many things in life are?

    Most people who come to EC are struggling (or have struggled) to simply accept that they are not straight, or otherwise conforming. They cannot countenance the idea that they are anything else, such is the pressure of shame and societal expectation. Anxiety is high and distress may be extreme, even giving way to despair. It follows that we do these people a grave disservice if we then introduce more and more obscure labels that few people recognise or understand. This isn't merely opinion, it's a matter of fact. Already vulnerable people are searching the internet for help and answers and they are being further harmed because somebody, somewhere has projected an unusually defined label onto them. For many, this represents a mental tipping point from which it is hard to recover.

    So this is where we are negotiating a fine line on EC. We need to appraise people of facts, as we know them and do no harm, whilst leaving space for more assured members to choose the label that fits best - for them.

    We remain open minded and will consider further evaluation and credible research into human sexuality/identity, but we have to say (and this is entirely reasonable) that the collective thoughts and opinions of a self identifying group do not amount to a body of evidence. We owe it everyone who comes here to work with the best available data at all times and draw upon the strength and knowledge of the whole community. If any member has some new research on this issue that they would like to share, please bring it to the attention of the staff team in the first instance and we will consider it carefully.
     
  20. Eris

    Eris Guest

    Indeed, this thread just became pointless. I dont know what else to say about this topic anymore.

    @Staff: I understand this is your forum so things go by your rules and your policies. I wont post/spread information like that again.
     
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