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Can Trump or Pence do anything in their power to limit the rights of LGBT ppl?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by SubZero, Nov 9, 2016.

  1. SkyWinter

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    How will they push it on "religious freedom" How do you "push something on freedom"? Are we right back to the problem of not understanding what freedom means?
     
  2. kibou97

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    Let's not bring back the same argument/type of argument that just got a thread locked yesterday. It's obvious he means they'll use the concept "reliious freedom" as an excuse to start impeding on the freedoms of LGBT people.
     
  3. Gunsmoke

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    Mhm, I agree. It's kind of like saying "I don't care about war in other countries because my country isn't at war". I know, I know, marriage equality and war aren't exactly related, but it's kind of a similar view: continuing my analogy, just because your country isn't at war now, doesn't mean it's never going to happen. And even if you never plan to get married, shouldn't you care about the rights of the LGBTQ+ community as a whole, and not just how they affect you? Marriage is just one piece on a chessboard of LGBTQ+ rights.
     
  4. SkyWinter

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    How do you use freedom to impede freedom? That doesn't make sense.
     
  5. Libertino

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    Yes it does.

    Which overrides: LGBT freedom to get married or religious freedom to live in a world without same-sex marriage?
     
  6. Gunsmoke

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    Seeing as real people are less important to Trump and Pence than a man in the sky whose existence we have no proof of... Well.
     
  7. Creativemind

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    Actually, my reasons for not caring about marriage equality as much has more to do with the fact that I feel that both LGBT and straight allies put marriage on the forefront of ALL of our issues. Other issues are completely ignored or not talked about at all by allies.

    What about conversion therapy?
    What about LGBT's losing their jobs?
    What about LGBT kids being disowned by unsupportive parents?
    What about hate crimes?
    What about the fact that rape is not taken seriously and the offender gets next to no jail time? It might sound unrelated to LGBT at first, but a lot of lesbians and bisexual women still face corrective rape and threats from straight men who feel entitled to cure them. Gay men also face homophobic rape attacks. I have to live my life in fear every day around straight men if I ever were to come out (I'm not saying straight women don't get raped, but as a lesbian, I feel I get far more sexual/threatening comments from men who know about my sexuality, even if they otherwise were not interested). My closest lesbian friend is a victim of corrective rape and was laughed by the judge. There was no justice. No prison time. Yet this is NEVER talked about by LGBT people or allies. In fact, the last time I brought up corrective rape or sexual harassment of lesbians, this was laughed at/disbelieved by LGBT people, and gay men told me that I was "so privileged that men actually want to harrass me".

    I'm fine with marriage equality, BUT I personally just think there are far worse issues out there that we should start discussing more. Not every gay person wants to be married, but hate crimes, loss of jobs, and corrective therapy is a physical threat to us all and something I wish we could focus on more.

    I guess you could say that yes, I technically support gay marriage, but I care "less" about it now since I've become bitter over it being the only thing others will care about where as more dangerous laws continue to affect my life and are not discussed.
     
  8. A Republican

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    The vast majority of Trump-supporters are very friendly with LGBT people.

    @Pence-rollback. It has something to do with religious freedom. The issue is taken to a state level and Washington does not intervene.
     
  9. SkyWinter

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    No. You are either free or you aren't. You can't block an open road with another open road. You block a road with a roadblock. Hence the name.
     
  10. JonSomebody

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    I'm glad you found this because that is what I mentioned in my post about this topic because I remember hearing this on a News Channel back in August. He also plans to roll back a lot of issues that Obama approved on.
     
  11. Kasey

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    Trump I'm convinced is more concerned with immigrants and making money. It's Pence who is the true oppressor.
     
  12. Gunsmoke

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    Cut one open road across the other. Makes an X.

    ---------- Post added 9th Nov 2016 at 04:43 PM ----------

    Oh, no, please don't misunderstand - I 100% agree with what you've just said. Marriage is FAR from the most important issue, I think it's just the "forefront" because it's more about having the same rights as straight people, who are never going to face conversion therapy and all those awful things and therefore can't relate.

    However, my chessboard analogy - if you lose the "marriage" piece, they've already started to dismantle your side. It's not the most important piece, no, but if they are allowed to take even one piece, who's to say they won't try to take more?

    ---------- Post added 9th Nov 2016 at 04:45 PM ----------

    Also, fuck your friend's judge. That's absolutely awful. And fuck any straight men making you feel scared.
     
  13. Darsch Hielle

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    Well with Republicans controlling all three branches of power in the near future... I'd say it's sadly a possibility.
     
  14. Creativemind

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    I honestly think we're on the same page, because I do think that gay marriage would stay legal and I would be very sad if it were taken away. I just think we need to start educating our allies on other issues.

    For example, I knew three people (two therapists) who thought they were my allies because they went on and on about their support for gay marriage. Which was good. But they also told me that I would still be a virgin if I slept with a woman and that PIV sex was always more emotional/special. That lesbians were missing out. That I should still stay open to men. This is homophobic/sexist as all hell. It made me think they wouldn't truly respect my marriage if they thought I couldn't have real sex and that I should hold out for a side male partner. Also, if we don't also change the definition of sex/virginity...it could have legal consequences to actual gay marriages as well. Such as adultery laws not being taken seriously/refused (already a loophole in the UK that people complained about) or consummation problems if a certain area requires it. It's also hypocritical to be against a traditional definition of one word but not another, when they both were originally exclusive to heterosexuals. I want the right to have my sexuality validated, and that comes with more education than just marriage. Laws won't change how people fetishize and invalidate lesbian/bi women, but the education would. I want to see more of this.

    ---------- Post added 9th Nov 2016 at 04:58 PM ----------

    *However, I do want the right to marry if I choose my mind (I should have said that). I just don't think marriage is going to solve the homophobia and the misogyny that a lot of women in our community face. It will take more education.
     
  15. Gunsmoke

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    Yeah, I agree. I'd definitely rather see issues like conversion therapy tackled, but I don't know how likely that's going to be with the deflated satsuma in office. It's bad enough that it's still legal here in the UK, where you can't even bring the whole "state law" thing into it.

    What? Therapists told you that? That's deplorable, it's like you can't even trust the people who are there to be trusted. You're totally right, I think education on LGBTQ+ issues is the way to go. Hopefully you'll get a more liberal education minister (that's what we call them in the UK, at least) who advocate for teachings on LGBTQ+ people - and not the offensive kind! I'd love to see LGBTQ+ issues included in the sexual education curriculum, that's for sure.

    No, marriage won't solve it, I just think that marriage is probably one of the few LGB issues that straight people can actually relate to, because we can pull the whole "you can get married, why can't we?" card. It's more difficult to do that with our other problems, for sure. Too much of our campaign is based on getting straight people's empathy, when what we need is their support.
     
  16. Creativemind

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    I think you have a point there that maybe getting them to relate is more effective, but It is sad because we need their support on other issues as well.

    Thank you for the conversation, and I hope I didn't offend you earlier :slight_smile: At least you understood what I meant.
     
  17. Gunsmoke

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    Thank you! And don't worry, you didn't - sorry for not making myself more clear in the first place. :slight_smile:
     
  18. Libertino

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    So if same-sex marriage is legal, are religious people opposed to same-sex marriage free?
     
  19. SkyWinter

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    That depends. I would say that a slave who can choose their food is still a slave. Having a couple of choices doesn't somehow make a slave not a slave. For example, a slave can choose to pick the cotton right to left, or left to right. They have the "freedom" to choose. That doesn't mean that they as a person are free.

    Similarly a religious person might hold particular views on marriage, or have the ability to perform certain actions, but that does not mean they are free.
     
  20. Andrew99

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    I can't say for sure. They can't get rid of gay marriage. They can't beat the Supreme Court.