1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

People Against Feminism..

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by SillyGoose, May 11, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. KayJay

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    795
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada.
    Calling rape culture mythology is pretty ridiculous and offensive, I've been a victim of sexual assault and I can tell you I have experienced rape culture first hand. I've confided in men before and you wouldn't believe some of the responses I get. Now of course I'm not judging all men based off of this, but if it has happened with men I thought I could trust, it's proof to me rape culture exists. If all you can do is judge a group of people based on a handful of extreme members and cases, you don't really have much of an argument. Heck I'm not even a self identifying feminist and I'm arguing in favour of it.
     
    #81 KayJay, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  2. beastwith2backs

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    The 6/ the socialist utopia.
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    I'm really sorry about what happened to you, honestly you have all my sympathy. But this isn't a personal attack, so please don't take it personally.

    But to say that their is a "rape epidemic" in the west is pure bullocks. There just simply isn't. Most people aren't going to rape you. It's very rare. But in the recent, there have been many false rape accusations, that later just turned out to be consexual sex, that someone regretted later on, and decided to call it "rape". I call it a myth because these feminists have taken the word and distorted it so far, as too mean " looking at a woman's face for more than 3 seconds" is somehow rape. It's ridiculous. And also again, why only women? Men get raped in prison, I don't see no feminists talking about that. Ever. It's always about women. They have a funny way of spinning the most trivial issues and making them about women, you know? This is why people think that they're gender supremacists. There is no rape culture in the west. Actual rapists get punished here. There is a rape culture in the middle east though, in some countries it's actually LEGAL. Where are the feminists talking about that?

    When you got raped, that wasn't rape culture. That was a line jackass who got the chance to take advantage of you, tragically. He's not part of a societal rape problem, just a personal one.

    I'm not judging all feminists on this. I don't know them individually. You wouldn't be judging all Muslims for pointing out the extremists of their religion, would you? It's true they are there, mabye not in all social circles, but there influence is there, no matter how minimal it is. I come from a Muslim, and trust me just about every Muslim I knew growing up had this "I hate the west" attitude. But they wouldn't go out of Their way to kill cartoonists for drawing pictures of Muhammad, or join ISIS. However, the psychos that would, will. And they hold the same ideas as those normal Muslims living good people lives. The same goes with feminism, some groups are less radical, even though they share the same basic ideas. After all those extreme members might just display what the movement is really about...

    Oh by the way, me bringing up Islam is analogy. I'm not trying to change the subject...

    Me calling rape culture a myth is offensive? How? And if it is...and? I shouldn't say anything then?
     
    #82 beastwith2backs, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  3. KayJay

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    795
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada.
    I'm not talking about the man who did it. I'm talking about the men I chose to confide my story to, men I thought I could trust who then asked me insensitive questions, told me I must be lying, asked about it as if it were some erotic story for them. That's rape culture. People who can't even empathize or treat me with a bit of dignity when I came to them with one of the most sensitive things I ever could. Treating me like I'm the liar when my basic rights were violated.

    Even with your example about Muslim extremists, the problem is that hundreds of thousands of people judge all Muslims based on the extremists. I've seen it on EC even! The extremists are a problem yes, but the many people who judge others based of a minority of a group are also a huge problem.
     
  4. imnotreallysure

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2013
    Messages:
    2,937
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Leeds, UK
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    ^^ other women have the same attitude though. Maybe not as prevalent, but it's still common enough to be a problem. Like I said, women can be their own worst enemies, and there isn't much chance of these problems being eradicated when women themselves are so harsh on other women and think other women dress like sluts so ask to be raped (this mindset is particularly common in women over a certain age who have conservative values).
     
    #84 imnotreallysure, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  5. beastwith2backs

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    The 6/ the socialist utopia.
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    That isn't rape culture, they weren't trying to rape you. They just didn't believe you. Perhaps they are jackasses, who knows. There's a lot of false rape accusations, so they might think you are one of them, I don't think you're lying. Consider the type of people you hang out with, if they can't trust you on that, then they aren't real friends.

    Those people who judge all Muslims on the extremists are in the minority. I guess most people realize that individual Muslims are good people, but they should realize that the religion and what it really stands for is a problem, and should be reformed for everyone's benefit.
     
  6. Libertino

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2016
    Messages:
    1,195
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    This Side of the Enlightenment
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    "Rape culture" doesn't mean "people trying to rape you", it refers to the societal problem of disbelieving victims, blaming rape on victims, and making excuses for rapists. And yes, women contribute to it too. It's a real issue, but the term "rape culture" is a bit odd--but that's what people call it.
     
  7. Shadstack

    Shadstack Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2016
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    uk
    I would argue that there isn't a "rape culture" in the West - it's just a buzzword thrown around to scare people. There have been some faulty studies that have watered down the term "rape" to mean sex while drunk, or forced kissing, and that came to 1/5 or 1/4 women being raped. This simply isn't true. The actual figure is 1/53, that's still bad, but it's worlds away from 1/4. And how can you say there's a rape culture anyway? It's illegal, rapists in prison are treated horribly by their inmates and it's viewed negativley by the average Joe. Who's endorisng rape in the West? Where were all the feminists during the rapes in Germany because of the immigrants?

    If you want a real "rape culture," go to any Islamic country ruled by Sharia law.

    Also, KayJay, those guys seem like a bunch of jackasses, what did they even say to you? Why were you friends with them?

    I'd just like to add, people have to go into cases of rape skeptically. You can't just go into a police office and tell them to arrest your supposed rapist. For all they know you could be just lying. In addition, all these false cases of rape going around recently haven't helped anyone. Some people commit suicide after being falsely accused of rape. Disgusting.
     
    #87 Shadstack, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  8. beastwith2backs

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    The 6/ the socialist utopia.
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Who is actually making excuses for rapists? Where are these horrible people? I think some people might be sceptical of rape claims because they usually end up turning out to be fake or regretted consexual sex. Look at Jian ghomeshi in Quebec, he's had his whole life ruined over a rape claim. Just a simple claim.

    ---------- Post added 14th May 2016 at 02:16 PM ----------

    What's more, trying to censor mentions of rape in media, because people are "triggered" by it: http://http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB11871130314313103897904581072491560572586

    Like seriously, now you can't read Shakespeare or Ovid because it contains rape? Great. The humanities are ruined.
     
    #88 beastwith2backs, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  9. Secrets5

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,964
    Likes Received:
    77
    Location:
    UK
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    A few people
    If we believe every woman who phones the police claiming they've been raped without an actual and fair hearing, it could mean innocent men go to jail just because women can play the ''overall oppressed'' card.

    I'm going a bit off this topic but links to the overall thread; women beat up men/boys and get away with it by claiming it's ''an attack on the patriarchy'' even if that man/boy hasn't actually done anything. Some of these women even get away with it, and the man/boy gets laughed at.

    People say telling boys to ''man up'' isn't a big deal in comparison to what girls go through, but if you look at the overall picture, it is. The association with ''man up'' is to be strong, dominant and not show emotion. If a boy grows up to have these traits merely because he's told that's what a man is, then the strong and dominance could hurt women and girls.

    Then people are going around teaching girls to be dominant. I don't think that's the answer, as it could create women who grow up to hurt men and boys. What we all need to learn is assertiveness. That means if someone is pushing you around, you stand up for it with words, but you aren't able to push another person around as they'll be assertive to you.
     
  10. Shadstack

    Shadstack Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2016
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    uk
    The link isn't working for me, but if what you're saying is true, it's stupid. I hate Shakespeare, but you don't just censor it because some people don't like it.
     
  11. idcidc

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2016
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ..
    Of course there are rape incidents,and they are really rare but that doesn't have to do with women being inferior or something like that..if the most robberies where done on males would that make females better?I might be thinking wrong but it seems logical to me at least.
     
    #91 idcidc, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  12. Libertino

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2016
    Messages:
    1,195
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    This Side of the Enlightenment
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I'm not saying you need to believe every claim of rape 100% with no questions asked, but people often disbelieve true claims despite the evidence given. "Oh, she's just being dramatic. Oh, she's just a slut. Well, she shouldn't have been drinking. Well, she shouldn't have dressed that way". You can have a "fair hearing" without outright disregarding any claim of assault upfront. A claim of assault needs to be investigated. But investigation and denial are two different things. There's no easy solution to it. Unless the rape is especially violent, it's often not easy to present evidence in a rape case. There's reason to be skeptical. But that doesn't mean disbelief should be the default response. In some ways, it's a catch-22. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you believe the claim and it's false, then you may do serious damage to the person accused of rape. If you disbelieve the claim and it's true, then you may do serious damage to the person who was raped.

    I heard a recent story on This American Life about a woman who was raped and no one believed her, including her close female friends. They said she was the type of girl who tended to be dramatic and that she'd been having problems recently--there were all kinds of reasons not to believe her. Only--a little while later another woman was raped in almost the exact same circumstances. It turned out that the original woman's claim was true, and that a serial rapist had been on the loose in the area. Most of her friends regretted disbelieving her, but at the same time they couldn't argue against the fact that they had reason not to believe her. And most of them ended on a conflicted troubled note with no solution to the problem. Not trying to be pessimistic, but it is often the case. And in this case, we weren't talking about drunk sex at a frat party, we were talking about someone breaking into her home in the middle of the night with a weapon. And even in that case, people still didn't believe her, because it had to do more with her personality than it did with the circumstances of the claim.

    Also, those of you claiming "most rape claims turn out to be false" might consider posting some statistics on that matter. I'd be curious to see them.

    And yes, regretting sex is not rape. Nor is consenting to sex while intoxicated.
     
    #92 Libertino, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  13. Secrets5

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,964
    Likes Received:
    77
    Location:
    UK
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I'm not claiming most, I don't know the statistics, so it could be most, it could be only a few, but I have heard about it on a few occasions [at least twice]. Even if it's not the majority of cases, the damage done to the people who are falsely accused is a lot. As you say, ''catch-22''. Maybe the court should just investigate neutrally before saying whose right or wrong, and a person refuse to believe or not believe the person before a court case is done.

    This is going to sound like a really bad get out clause, but I can't think of anything else to say: the world is a mess. Every majority, every minority, we're all just messed up. Even if we're not ''extreme'' there's always going to someone who thinks we're wrong. So maybe nothing's right. Maybe it's all just opinion - and here's mine.
     
  14. Radioactive Bi

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,339
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    UK Midlands
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Feminism I a detrimental movement which does not address real problems in this world. It claims equality, but always makes out that the problems are caused by men. Here are a few of the many problems if feminism:

    It's mysogenistic, painting women as perpetual victims, not strong enough to get ahead in society and so special measures need to be put in place to boost them up.

    It trivialises rape, with many feminists calling everything rape leading to actual rape victims then having problems being taken seriously. Some feminists also discourage rape victims going to the police, because hiding the fact that you've been raped, is really the solution. Feminists are also quick to jump to the guilty before proven innocent stance against acused people, which has actually resulted in suicides of people falsely accused.

    Rather than addressing real women's problem around the world, like FGM, oppression in 3rd world countries, forced marriage etc, they focus on trivial matters like man spreading.

    Feminism is hypocritical, saying women should be empowered and free to wear what they like and then attacking strong independent women who do that.

    Feminism perpetuates lies and myths like the patriarchy, which most feminists can't even define for themselves and cannot demonstrate exists and things like the so called wage gap which is demonstrably false.

    There are so many more problems with this ideologically flawed movement and cult, that I could be writing for hours. There are real issues in this world, which feminism has no real interest in solving and just sits around whining about unfair things are rather than putting in the hard work to resolve them. What is really needed is less feminism rhetoric and more egalitarian action.

    Happy days :slight_smile:
     
  15. Libertino

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2016
    Messages:
    1,195
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    This Side of the Enlightenment
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    It would be ideal to begin with a neutral stance, but unfortunately that's often asking someone to fight against human nature. In any kind of criminal case, people have often made up their minds about guilt or innocence within seconds of hearing about the case, and additional evidence, unless particularly jarring, does not change their minds. The story I relayed was especially disheartening, because we weren't talking about police and strangers online not believing her, we were talking about her close friends who knew her. But even that wasn't good enough. But "innocent until proven guilty" is a principle for a reason. There's often a tendency in cases of sexual crimes (not just rape, but child molestation or abuse or any other kind) to have a "guilty until proven innocent" attitude, and as we know, this inverse approach is deeply flawed and causes serious damage.

    I agree, though, that sometimes the situation does seem hopeless. And it is a mess. All I can say in situations like these is to try to be as neutral as possible and try to weigh the evidence and claim fairly. No one has ever come up to me and told me they were raped or assaulted. I don't know how I'd react in such a situation. When hearing a claim like that, you are now in a careful predicament in which one false move could ruin someone's life.
     
    #95 Libertino, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  16. PrettyinPunk

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2016
    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    MI
    Gender:
    Female
    I've already stated my stance on feminism and what I think about it today so I won't go on about it. But to seriously say rape culture is myth, and downplay it is incredibly absurd. Rape culture will exist so long as rape exists. You say it's not prevalent in the west? Your wrong. Let me give you the statistics.

    There are 293,066 victims of rape and sexual assault each year.

    Nearly 18 million of American women have been victims of rape or attempted rape.

    Nearly 3 million American men have victims of rape or sexual assault.

    15% of all victims are adolescents under the age of 12.

    Rape is the most underrated crime reported to the police.

    These statistics are taken straight from the NSVRC, RAINN, and reports from the CDC. If you want direct links I'd be happy to post them.

    Now these are assaults that are actually reported. I can guarantee you there are many women who don't report attacks. And even more men. A major part of the reason people don't speak up is cause of the 'rape culture idea'.
    It may be considered to be hand in hand with the feminism movement but it can apply to men and children. How many men do you think feel secure telling a friend/doctor/ etc. that their girlfriend or wife sexually assaulted and or raped them? In truth many people would laugh or find it unimportant. Of course it's always ok to speak out about these things but in our culture you still may feel like no one will listen or judge you as the one with the problem.

    Does that mean people don't abuse the rape/assault claim? They sure do. Look at other crimes reported, people abuse claims there as well. Maybe they do it for revenge, or money, may be they're not of sound mental state. The reasons can vary. But for every catch 22 example, and innocent male who's life was ruined due to false claims, there's a child who may speak up about a family members abuse and not be taken seriously due to age. Or a women who feels admitting she was raped, makes her dirty and worthless. Or a man who will never tell anyone because to do so means he's weak or failed at being masculine.

    When I was in criminal law and enforcement we were taught that as an enforcer or the law it's is your responsibility to believe every rape victims claim (regardless of gender or age) initially. From that point you ask questions, perform exams, look for evidence to determine if the victims story checks out. Sometime it's harder to determine, sometimes the court or legal procedure fails and someone is unjustly charged. That is the fault of a legal system that could use improvement (that is a different subject to debate)

    Point being, to deny rape culture is not helping anyone. No one has the right to touch another without consent and No one should ever feel like a criminal for asking for help.
     
    #96 PrettyinPunk, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  17. Gunsmoke

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2016
    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manchester, United Kingdom
    Gender:
    Female
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I'm not saying this to cause drama, but I honestly think that the reason so many men are against feminism is because they feel threatened by it. We are not going to take over the world. We only want the power and rights that men are allowed. Especially for women in particularly oppressive countries where they are mutilated, which is disgusting. Feminism may be more needed in the East, but there are still problems in the West. This isn't an oppression olympics and yes, whilst somebody's problems are a lot worse than most (e.g. the Middle East) doesn't mean that people with smaller problems shouldn't also be helped, such as anti-women feeling in the West. Just because one person is bleeding out doesn't mean that you shouldn't help the person with the broken fingers (although they should obviously not be a priority).
     
    #97 Gunsmoke, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  18. beastwith2backs

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    The 6/ the socialist utopia.
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Well, it turns out, I was wrong about "most rape reports being false" the truth is, there's no way of knowing according to this article: http://https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-09-19/how-many-rape-reports-are-false

    ---------- Post added 14th May 2016 at 04:45 PM ----------

    Fun fact: there are actually women who are against feminism(Christina Hoff sommers, even though she calls herself a feminist, for some reason. A LOT OF THEM. Do they feel threatened by it too? And there are a lot of men who call them selves feminists too( Steve shives, terrible example, I know, but at the same time a good one aswell.)

    And for goodness sakes, name one actual inequality that men have over women! In the west!

    And for all you saying that rape culture is real:

    http://http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/rape-culture-theres-no-such-thing/16206#.VzeO7cis_CQ

    feminists don't care about female rapists. Just the male ones. Because men are evil, and patriarchy, and power structures.....

    And that rape statistics: http://http://time.com/3633903/campus-rape-1-in-5-sexual-assault-setting-record-straight/

    ---------- Post added 14th May 2016 at 04:58 PM ----------

    The only inequality I can think of that women don't have but men do is maternity leave- America is the only country in the west that doesn't have this. You don't see feminists talking about that. Ever. But then again, most of them aren't planning to be mothers. In other words, they pretty much only care up things that fit their agenda...

    ---------- Post added 14th May 2016 at 05:03 PM ----------

    If feminists in the west have enough time to complain about how emojis do 't represent them enough, then equality has been reached here, for the most part, and they shure as hell have the time to stop barbaric practices such as FGM in places like Somalia. I wonder if that fits into their agenda somewhere...
     
    #98 beastwith2backs, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  19. Gunsmoke

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2016
    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manchester, United Kingdom
    Gender:
    Female
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Why the hell would women, even anti-feminist women, feel threatened by feminism? Although the movement (at it's core) supports all genders, it is still female-centric due to inequalities.
    I said "many men". Not "all men." And I'm not saying that feeling threatened is necessarily a bad thing: I feel threatened by anti-LGBTQ+ activists and by anti-women activists. If there were a bunch of men walking around (the reverse to those feminists who are really just fascists) screaming "KILL ALL WOMEN", I'd feel extremely threatened. And this is a close to real sentiment in some countries. I'm not criticising anybody who feels threatened by it, I'm just trying to explain why they shouldn't be.

    Also, not all inequalities are necessarily based around legalities. Subjective experience is very relevant in areas such as this. And for that, just ask any woman. Personally, I'd say "being treated like a child by some of the men that I know whenever I dare to disagree with them".


    ---------- Post added 14th May 2016 at 01:12 PM ----------

    PS. I apologise for being Western-centric. As somebody who lives in England I cannot pretend to know what it is like for women in, say, the Middle East. Although I definitely think that we should put their needs before ours. At the end of the day, however, I can only speak from my own experiences.

    ---------- Post added 14th May 2016 at 01:36 PM ----------

    PPS. To everyone saying "but what are feminists doing for women in oppressive countries?", come back to me with a list of all the ways you are helping LGBTQ+ rights in oppressive countries. Until then, don't bring it up until you can prove you're not being a hypocrite.

    Thanks!
     
    #99 Gunsmoke, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  20. Eveline

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    home
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Many feminist arguments are based on exclusion, excluding trans women, women that behave in too masculine or too feminine a way, men... there are very good reasons for women to be threatened by feminism. Did you think about it that many women have men that they love and care for and when they hear a feminist woman shout out how they are monsters those women feel the need to protect the people they love. Another example are mothers of male children. In the end, as long as there are militaristic and exclusionary feminists there is a good reason for people to feel threatened by them.

    Yes, feminism is important and there are still some areas of women's lives that need to changed. A woman shouldn't feel threatened walking out on the street alone and shouldn't have to fear being Addressed rudely when passing by men. There shouldn't be indirect pressure to conform and every person should feel free to live the life that they want to live. However feminism is a very wide and diverse subject and some aspects of it are extremely problematic.
     
    #100 Eveline, May 14, 2016
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.