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General News Sen. Sanders more electable than Hillary

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by onlythebulls13, Jan 10, 2016.

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  1. onlythebulls13

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    [YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/TPD5DhCGAGQ[/YOUTUBE]

    Sen. Sanders breaks down the unfounded Secy. Clinton argument that Sen. Sanders is unelectable. Looks like Hillary is starting to FEEL THE BERN!
     
  2. Andrew99

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    She's still going to win.
     
  3. sldanlm

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    Back when President Obama was first running against Hillary, I recall hearing something similar about Obama. Not from Hillary herself, but one of her supporters. Racist white voters will never vote for a black man for president, he doesn't have enough political experience, he's associated with some far left people in his past, etc. The last point was picked up and ran with by the right wing in the general election.

    I think that the only unelectable candidates in the general election are probably Trump, Carson, and perhaps Huckabee. Based on what I've seen in past presidential elections, I think for the Democratic candidate it boils down to energizing your base to come out and vote. The Republicans have to not only energize their base, but also attract swing voters in the middle. At this moment in time, I think Bernie has a better chance of doing that than Hillary, but the general election is a long way off. Yes the Republicans are going to demonize Bernie as being too left wing if he's the nominee, but they're going to do that to whoever it is regardless. At this moment in time, many people who aren't into politics on a regular basis are tired of the usual suspects when it comes to political candidates. They want someone who isn't afraid to tell it like they think it is, regardless of what crowd they're in front of. Although Bernie is a Senator, he's still considered by many as an outsider. Unlike Trump, he's not got the baggage of saying crazy and stupid things, and alienating whole groups of people. (including some reporters at Fox news :lol:slight_smile:

    As far as defeating Trump, either democratic candidate could do that. The real question is who could easily defeat the others, and no one knows who that person is going to end up being. Also many things can happen in the meantime to help or derail someones candidacy.
     
  4. Andrew99

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    If Hilary doesn't get the nomination then a republican is going to win.
     
  5. imnotreallysure

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    Hillary is a right-wing weirdo who will maintain the status quo, but she's preferable to any Republican candidate. Americans are not ready for real change.
     
    #5 imnotreallysure, Jan 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  6. onlythebulls13

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    Andrew99, clearly you didnt watch the clip. Sanders does better in the general than Hillary.

    imnotreallysure, i agree completely that hillary is a neo conservative especially when it comes to foriegn policy (boots on the ground in the middle east, no fly zone in syria when isis has no jet fighters or aircrafts, etc.). I do disgree with you thay Americans are not ready for real change. I find it difficult to find someone who claims to be liberal and can muster up a tangle argument for why they want Hillary other than the argument that Ann Romney made in 2012 about Mitt, "Its our turn!" Or the idea thay shes good for women and kids... Just a few years ago she supported suppressing lgbt youth and lesbians by supporting and pushing for DOMA (defense of marriage act). How many LGBTQ kids have killed themselves because they didnt think anything could get better? When you have leaders of our country saying that same sex marriage is unnatural and that LGBTQ people dont deserve the same rights as heterosexual couples, people then tend to feel hopeless. We ought to have a President that has had the back of the LGBTQ community when it wasnt politically smart, we should have a president that marched with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and organized the first ever sit in protest against segregation in chicago colleges housing.
    Hillary has only been supportive of LGBTQ rights when the polls tell her its safe to. We need a leader who actually leads and doesnt follow polls!
    Peace
    Love
    And FEEL THE BERN
     
  7. DreamerBoy17

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    Perhaps this is a young and naive view, but how could Bernie Sanders ever win if everyone is content to shrug and say that he doesn't have a chance, even if they like him? We need people to break out of the status quo mindset and make the change that they want to see in the world. It's up to the people if Bernie has a chance. Don't vote for Hillary just because you think "this is the best we're getting". Our country deserves more than that.
    Feel the Bern 2016!
     
  8. Plattyrex

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    I would say Hilary is less electable than Sanders. The whole Benghazi thing isn't just going to go away because she acts like it's not a big deal, and there's no way that isn't going to be in all of her opponents campaign ads. You cannot be a part of a scandal that big before you're even president, and if you couple that with her extremely low charisma and generally unlikable character it will be very difficult for her to win a general election, especially against a more aggressive speaker like Trump. Now I don't believe Trump is going to get the nomination, but even if he doesn't I still think she's going to lose. Rubio is extremely charismatic for better or worse, and Cruz does come off as rather friendly and inviting so long as you're not one of the groups he hates. The only person I can see Hilary possibly beating is Carson, and that's only because he suffers from a lot of the same problems as Hilary, ie no charisma, tremendously unlikable, etc. It doesn't matter though. I would love to see Sanders get elected, but I would be willing to bet money that Hillary is going to get the nomination and pave the way for a Republican president.
     
  9. sldanlm

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    If I had to bet my money right now on who the candidate is going to end up being, I'd bet on Hillary too. That is not the issue though in the OP., it is if Bernie were to become the nominee, could he win in November against the unknown Republican candidates? Should voting for or against Bernie be based simply on this question? (the unelectable candidate issue)

    Here's a hypothetical: If heaven forbid something were to happen to derail Hillary's chances prior to the nomination process (could be anything) and the only viable candidates left were Bernie and O'Malley, is either one of them unelectable against any of the current Republican candidates?

    ---------- Post added 10th Jan 2016 at 12:06 PM ----------

    Perhaps it's my pessimist side but I tend to think so too. Right now there seems to be a lot of people who claim to feel disenfranchised on both sides of the aisle, but I guess we'll see what actually happens when they get into the voting booth.
     
  10. onlythebulls13

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    Vote Now: MoveOn's 2016 Presidential Endorsement | MoveOn.org

    Vote to for moveon.org to endorse sen. Sanders

    ---------- Post added 10th Jan 2016 at 11:43 AM ----------

    Sldanlm, i wouldnt be so quick to bet on hillary. No candidate has ever failed to win their partys nomination after winning both the iowa caucus and the new hampshire primary. Hillarys people are starting to concede both those states and saying that bernie cant beat hillary in the south. Id be willing to bet big money on bernie if he wins iowa. Hes within the margin of error in iowa as we speak and there no way hes losing new hampshire.
     
    #10 onlythebulls13, Jan 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  11. BryanM

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    If the 2014 midterms were any indicator, the Democratic Party would know they need to provide a progressive alternative to the GOP leadership. If Hillary wants to win over the younger and progressive voters in her party, she needs to actually start being progressive on issues not only when it's convenient for her. It's also very ignorant of Hillary Clinton supporters to say that Bernie Sanders can't win, especially when he's polling better than Barack Obama did in 2008. If Sanders is still in it by Super Tuesday, he has a very legitimate chance to be the nominee, and I'd hope that whomever the Democratic nominee is the party will coalesce around progressive agendas for 2017 onward, including single payer or universal health care, more gun control, the reinstatement of Glass-Steagall, overturning Citizens United, and other causes we can win elections on.
     
  12. AwesomGaytheist

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    Bernie Sanders is unelectable and he's more than likely going to get crushed in the upcoming primary for this reason: winning the lunatic fringe vote (which only makes up 30-35% of the total party population) isn't going to get you the nomination when the rest of the party is united behind the more qualified and better-suited candidate. The reason Donald Trump is doing so well is because he's got the 35% lunatic fringe vote while the establishment is split between 14 other candidates. But when the other 70% of us Democrats get out and vote, Bernie Sanders and his supporters are going to get a rude awakening.
     
  13. imnotreallysure

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    He's unlikely to ever win because - and the above post demonstrates this perfectly - he, and his supporters, are labeled as lunatic fringes for offering a true progressive left-wing alternative - or, to put it another way, bringing American politics in line with the rest of the Western world, as opposed to the kind of shite Hillary and her dullard associates are proposing. She reminds me of Tony Blair - a true skeeve. Careerist in every sense of the word. Horrid.

    We have our fair share of creeps too, in fairness.. David Cameron is probably equally as awful, even though he is right-wing here.
     
    #13 imnotreallysure, Jan 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  14. onlythebulls13

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    Awesomegaytheist, Please explain to me how hillary is more electable.
    Bernie is polling better against all gop opponents than hillary is, hence more electable.
    Bernie has support among independents.
    Bernie has gotten between 25% and 30% of republicans vote in vermont for his elections to become mayor of Burlington, representative of vermont and his most recent election to the senate.
    People on the right hate hillary and her nomination will pump up the right wingers to come out to vote.
    Real liberals dont like her because we cant trust that shell devolve back to her original positions.
    Moderates are "meh" about her.
    Dick Cheney evolved on LGBTQ rights a few years before Hillary did.

    To call Bernies supporters the "lunatic fringe" is absolutely insulting. What is looney about single payer health care (hillary supported for a period of time before bug pharma told her not to).
    What is looney about breaking up the banks that crashed the economy because they are bigger now than they were in 2008 when they were too big to fail?
    What is looney about a tax on wall street speculation to pay for tuition free public college?
    What is looney about paid maternity and paternity leave for 3 months for families with new borns?
    What is looney about voting against the invasion of Iraq when they had nothing to do with 9/11?
    What is looney about only choosing supreme court justices who promise to push to over turn citizens united (money is speech/ corporations are people)
    What is looney about common sense background checks for gun purchases, closing the gun show loophole and not allowing terrorists on the no fly list to buy guns?

    Ill tell you whats looney, having a no fly zone over syria to fight isis when they have no airforce or any aircrafts. Shooting down russian planes over foreign countries...actually thats just down right war mongering

    So in conclusion i ask you to actually point out a policy issue of Sen. Sanders that is lunatic...i assume you cant so youll just spew HRC's unfounded talking point that hes unelectable.
     
  15. AwesomGaytheist

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    They are truly a lunatic fringe. Hillary Clinton is-like myself-a pragmatic progressive. Someone who is left-wing and progressive, but who also wants to get things done. I haven't heard one reason out of a Bernie Sanders supporter against voting for Hillary Clinton that didn't come from some whacko left-wing blog and isn't a figment of their imagination.

    If you listen to Bernie Sanders talking, you hear nothing but slogans and no plan to actually accomplish anything he talks about. "Break up the big banks" is nothing more than a slogan that only makes sense if you don't put any thought into it-is that even legal or possible and how do you plan to get a Republican Congress that's full of militant extremists who think they're on a mission of God to stop your presidency to pass anything you're proposing?

    I can't believe the day has come that I of all people get labeled a conservative Democrat, but I'm just a guy who knows how the government works and how people tend to vote based on history. I can tell you that if Sanders beat the odds and hell froze over won in 2016, he'd lose in a 1984-style landslide in 2020, as the GOP would do what it did in 1980 to beat Jimmy Carter: unite behind one candidate and stop all the drama.

    But of course, Sanders would get absolutely crushed this fall if he did get the nomination. The polls show Bernie Sanders taking 44.3% of the vote to a generic Republican's 42.3% of the vote. This leaves 13.6% undecided. With a socialist on the ballot, independents (who already hate Democrats as it is hence the 2010, 2012 and 2014 elections. Indies voted 50%-45% for Romney believe it or not) are more than likely going to swing at least 2-1, if not 3-1 Republican in that case. This is why Kay Hagan, Alison Lundergan Grimes, Michelle Nunn, and many other Democrats led in the polls right up to Election Day in 2014 and lost, some of them by humiliating margins.
     
    #15 AwesomGaytheist, Jan 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  16. onlythebulls13

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    So i laid out why i cant support hillary if you actually read my post. And you completely ignored me asking you to lay out what is looney about bernie....oh no, you said its looney to break up the big banks that crashed our economy...like FDR... you probably think FDR (one of the greatest presidents in american history) is looney.

    Please site the poll that says bernie only has a two point lead over a republican candidate. In my clip that started the post, bernie lays out the fact that Quinnipiac found bernie demolishes the gop far better than hillary

    Allison lundergan grimes and company lost because the DNC is completely inept. Just look at the losses that democrats have suffered under DWS leadership

    Can you tell.me what is progressive about supporting TPP? Which Hillary said was the gold standard of trade deals time and time again?

    Whats progressive about making millions by giving speeches for Citigroup and lehman brothers?

    Is it progressive to say that marriage is between a man and a woman when dick cheney says he believes in marriage equality?

    Ill be completely honest, i just want to know what you think is looney about Bernie Sanders. There are multiple reasons why i think hillart is, which ive listed above your post but all you can sayis that bernie is looney for being against the big banks that crashe our economy....oh that reminds me, hillary also is against reinstating glass stegall. (Prevents banks from gambling with our money)
     
  17. dano218

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    I honestly find it hard to believe that Bernie could win the general election and i would be shocked if he did become president. Polls can be proven to be inaccurate and i would not take polls seriously at this point in the race. Also if Bernie would become the nominee i could not see myself voting for him and probably vote for Gary Johnson instead. These two main parties don't seem worth my vote anymore no matter who the nominees are.
     
  18. AwesomGaytheist

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    Here's Marco Rubio leading Sanders by two with 13% undecided: RealClearPolitics - Election 2016 - General Election: Rubio vs. Sanders

    Here's where you can find all the current polling for that matter: RealClearPolitics - 2016 Presidential Race

    As I stated before, Bernie Sanders simply spouts off slogans and talking points. A $15 minimum wage would drive up inflation like you wouldn't believe, whereas a $10 minimum wage is right where minimum wage needs to be. He lost all credibility when his supporters began screaming conspiracy theories about the DNC. Democrats didn't get killed in the South and in Congress because of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, it's what happens to the President's party every midterm. Bush's Republicans lost both houses of Congress in 2006, Reagan lost the Senate in 1986, Clinton lost Congress in 1994, that's just what happens.

    In fact, 20 years from now, we'll look back and see the Democratic Party's losses in the South (which was nothing new, the South has been trending Republican since 1964) as a necessary evil, as it expelled the loser Blue Dog Democrats (example: Zell Miller, the Governor/Senator from Georgia who gave the keynote address at the 2004 Republican National Convention) out of power and allowed the Democratic Party to become a truly progressive party.

    Hillary Clinton has already come out and opposed the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and while she negotiated for terms that would have benefited America's economy (And she said she wanted it to be the gold standard of American trade deals, another example of selective editing/hearing by the Bernie Sanders supporters) and when we didn't get what we wanted, she decided we should reject the deal.

    You want to talk about Wall Street donations? Fine. Hillary Clinton was re-elected by such a wide margin in 2006 because of her efforts for 9/11 relief. That's why she was so popular to the point where even Wall Street supported a Democrat. If you want someone to really rail against over Wall Street, why don't you talk about Chuck Schumer, the incoming Senate Democratic leader from New York who is a puppet of Wall Street.

    You want to talk about gay marriage? Hillary opposed gay marriage at a time when everyone opposed gay marriage, Democrat or Republican. And that video that's been circulating on YouTube is another selectively-edited clip. The point that Democrat after Democrat made in 2004-yes, even John Kerry, the nominee for President that year-was that a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage was an overreaction. Like 45% of Americans, people change their views on certain issues over time.

    It really is a fantasy to think that you can pull in a trillion dollars a year in one new tax and earmark that toward university education. That's like me telling you to go bring me a unicorn. It is a fantasy, it does not work, and in fact, most Sanders supporters that I've dealt with in person or online are so far to the left that they wouldn't even be satisfied if someone like Nancy Pelosi were elected president.
     
  19. onlythebulls13

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    Ok, well you and I have completely different theories on how we should move forward. You believe in lower wages, i believe that if you work 40 hours a week then you shouldnt be living in poverty.
    DWS abandoned Howard Deans 50 states strategy, so yes i blame her and the inept DNC. And trust me, i cant stand chuck schumer, i cant stand joe manchim, i cant stand claire mccaskill, i cant stand middle of the road, corporate democrats.

    To envoke 9/11 for the reason why she accepted millions from wall st is completely laughable and every progressive news outlet, even the corporate ones saw it as gulliani style pandering (noun, verb and 9/11).

    I supported the real liberal in the 2004 nomination, howard dean. Hillary was against gay marriage, even went on ellen saying she doesnt believe in gay marriage but thinks they should only have civil unions, its not just one clip.

    You think nancy pelosi isnt a corporate democrat? Hahahahah, you need to stop watching chris matthews, chuck todd, andrea mitchell and start listening to real liberals.

    Bernie has been on the correct side of all the issues for decades and to just throw random percentages out there again is laughable.

    Wall st didnt just start supporting the clintons in 2006 too. Bill Clinton had his state of the union when he claimed the era of big government is over. Yeah thats a democratic position..hahah.

    TPP, NAFTA, CAFTA mixed with wars from the bush administration brought about the collapse of the economy. Trade deals made by wall st, behind closed doors which the public isnt allowed to see the details of. Another difference between you and i, im for transparency.

    Youre a moderate democrat. Dont insult the liberals by claiming to be one because youre left leaning on gay marriage alone. I cant believe you think $10 minimum wage is acceptable. Im guessing youre a silver spooner, i know way too many hard working people who work 2 jobs only to have their houses foreclosed on because $10 an hour is a slave wage.

    Yes, ill say it again. $10 an hour is slave wage. Try living in Chicago on $20,000 a year. Please try. What a joke. Especially when your buddy Rahm wants to keep raising taxes on the middle and lower class in chicago...actually i should just say the lower class because middle class is damn near non existant now. Cant wait to hear your republican talking point about how you dont want children working at mcdonalds to make $20,000 a year.

    Why do wages go up for the wealthiest Americans yet everyone elses gets to see stagnant wages.

    ---------- Post added 10th Jan 2016 at 06:18 PM ----------

    Oh dont forget, hillary is a woman, so you should vote for her because of that....smh. we need a woman president, for sure, but not Margaret Thatcher 2.0

    ---------- Post added 10th Jan 2016 at 06:20 PM ----------

    If you dont wanna aim big, then dont vote for bernie, if you want the status quo, vote shillary
     
  20. Aussie792

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    In a system where voting isn't compulsory and primaries are widely voted upon, preliminary polling doesn't actually indicate who is most likely to win, which affects Sanders as much as it affects Trump. The supporters of both those candidates are less likely to vote in actual elections (more true for Trumps' supporters than Sanders's), whereas establishment candidates like Clinton or Rubio are more likely to gather a large number of votes in the election itself. That is one of the reasons it is a risk to back Sanders all the way even if his polling appears positive now; because it is too likely he couldn't command a sufficient majority come November.

    On higher education, I believe that Sanders is entirely right in spirit. But he needs to present a costed plan which outlines exactly what he intends. Because at the moment, I can't tell if he wants something like Australia - where fees are paid by the federal government and students pay back the loan to the government at the rate of inflation over the course of their working lives - or more like Germany, where the states foot the entire bill for students. Either way, he needs to be extremely clear about how to enact those reforms, because they still remain closer to hot air than visionary plans. The US has a uniquely bloated tertiary education system and is unlike most countries in that the elite universities are private. A template can't be stolen from overseas for those reasons - an extremely well researched plan must be presented before I make any comment on Sanders's credibility there. At the moment, I don't think anyone can comment on the viability of such a plan because we don't know if it would be under the authority of the president, anyway, or whether he'd have to back down in the face of insurmountable opposition.

    And I find it rather sad that Clinton jumped on the bandwagon to oppose the TPP; it could have been touted as an excellent example of bipartisan diplomacy and trade policy negotiated throughout under her tenure and others'. It is one of the most comprehensive trade deals in history. It sets out labour and environmental standards absent in all other multilateral trade deals and largely ignored by the WTO, reduces unnecessary tariffs on virtually every product except certain agricultural niches of certain states party to it (Japanese beef and New Zealand dairy, for example). It establishes strong competition rules and non-state arbitration to ensure that such standards are met (important in corrupt, state-managed economies like Vietnam's), which still don't supersede national laws unless that country's judiciary find it legally more compelling than domestic law (which usually means that domestic law is rather weak). The investor-state dispute mechanism is mostly designed so that countries like Brunei or Vietnam can't arbitrarily stop foreign companies from engaging in their business, not so that evil multinationals can destroy the world and make money, as has so often been baselessly declared by critics. The United States lost on one small issue which doesn't even affect most Americans; pharmaceutical patents were proposed to last for 12 years in all states party to the TPP, but Australia threatened to pull out of the talks altogether if the patent timeframe weren't reduced to 8 years.

    Even without the TPP, America still wouldn't be able to magically restore the manufacturing jobs which have been on the decline since the '80s and '90s - as they have been in every developed country. The TPP focuses on services a great deal more than any previous agreement, which is likely to be highly beneficial for the US and is certainly far more reflective of what the US is actually like in 2016; you can't outsource many services and the new flexibility for companies to bring service workers into the US could easily be a boon for everyone involved. And last, if Congress refused to ratify the TPP, that would be a massive snub to every country involved in almost a decade worth of talks, to craft a deal that every country made large concessions to complete and which is still very much pro-US. It would appear undiplomatic, seem in poor faith on the part of the US government and the rejection of the deal would be entirely symbolic and based on dreadful reasoning.

    In any case, Sanders proposes contradictory ideas far too often. He wants to increase the minimum wage drastically across the entire United States, rather than having it correspond to the local cost of living, yet wants to keep jobs in America. If the cost of low-skill work skyrockets in the US, companies will have no choice but to mechanise further or outsource jobs. Instead of offering sweeteners to companies thinking of pulling their labour out of China - where labour costs have risen significantly over the past few years and will continue to rise as the changing demographic of the labour market results in fewer manual labourers and many more educated workers - Sanders simply yells angrily that those companies are being disloyal to the needs of the people of the United States. He offers no prospect of being friendly to the corporations whose outsourcing is supposedly draining America, which is hardly an incentive for them to return.
     
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