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I'm a feminist but..?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by grungeteen, Oct 4, 2015.

  1. grungeteen

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    So I'm a feminist and I believe that we should all be treated equally and I agree with most of feminism but there is one thing- culture appropriation. Most feminists don't agree with culture appropriation and all they do is spew hate at people because if it- I don't agree with this- I respect the fact that you don't like it when people wear a 'hairstyle that isn't part of their culture' and I get it when you ask someone to stop but that does not give you the right to give verbal abuse and hate. Sometimes I question feminism and what it has turned into (all the hate and stuff).

    I don't understand. So a particular hairstyle belongs to a certain culture or race (and if you aren't part of that culture or race, you're forbidden to wear it? Because of the Colour of my skin, I'm not allowed to dress a particular way? And if I do, I will be hated? (FYI I'm not white, I am mixed). I think that if we are serious about it (like not doing it to offend people and stuff) we should be allowed to do and wear things that may not be traditionally our own culture- that is how we learn. How am I expected to learn about other cultures and open up my mind if I am not 'allowed' to dress or do things? I find a lot of cultures very interesting, especially Indian culture. So just because I'm not Indian (although I am half south-east Asian btw) I'm not allowed to wear an Indian sari because I find the culture and clothes interesting and I want to know and learn about it? And if I do it, I'll just get an endless amount of hate from certain 'feminists'?

    Sometimes I feel like this is another way to segregate us. People are like this hairstyle is only for whites people and this hairstyle is only for black people- just like in the past, one bathroom was only for white people and the other was for black people. See the resemblance? I don't understand what our society is turning into?

    I am half south-east Asian and I more closely to relate to that culture (as I grew up in the country for most of my life) and if I saw a Caucasian person (or just a foreigner in general, whether their black, white or Hispanic) dressed up in our traditional clothing, I would not find that offensive (as long as it wasn't some sort of stupid Halloween costume), I would see it as they are trying to learn about a culture they find beautiful, fascinating and interesting.

    We should be opening up our arms to people of different cultures, showing them, letting them learn about us. We shouldn't be shutting them out. I feel like the wall between cultures and races is made even stronger by the hate of culture appropriation. How can we be one? Be a society of unity and without segregation?

    I don't understand.
     
  2. Yosia

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    Feminism started out as a good thing, fighting for equality. But now, some things about it make me cringe, such as the things you have listed in the post.

    The things I find with feminism is, people have jumped onto it because they think that they can say what they want and people take them seriously, and unfortunately, it has worked in some cases.

    We need to appreciate different cultures if we are going to be a multi-cultural and diverse world, but it is not going to happen when there is people who want to segregate cultures even more by saying we can't appreciate other cultures.

    Most people in this world will just follow what someone important says, that's how it is. And that is why we'll struggle if the powerful people are supporting segregation and other negative things.

    If we are truly going to fight for equality, then that means equality for all, not just one group of people.
     
  3. loveislove01

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    Yes, I have really seen that happen often.

    My English class had a discussion on that- (I'm Indian, by the way)
    We talked about how it would be offensive for a white person to wear cornrows, and it would be offensive for them to dress in Indian clothes and say "namaste" and me and this other girl- who happened to be black, defended that.

    She said that as long as they're not degrading black people, they can do whatever they want. I said I'd be flattered if someone tried to speak the language, as long as they weren't doing it in a bad way (mocking me, or something)

    I think this cultural appropriation thing is just separating us...
    I believe in feminism as well, and equality for everyone, not separation.
     
  4. Simple Thoughts

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    My list of problems with feminism

    - Teach men not to rape - The idea is funadamentally flawed in so many ways. Not only does it actively discourage women from learning self-defense but it also places blame on one gender as a whole for the actions of a very very very small minority. It also fails to address the fact that some people cannot be taught there are psychopaths and sadists in this world who cannot be educated out of doing terrible things. Also imagine if instead of 'teach men not to rape' it was instead 'teach black people not to steal' You'd probably quickly find the problem.

    - Cultural appropriation - I think the original poster covered this one very well.

    - Male tears cups/#killallmen/Die Cis Scum - Here is another problem with feminism where a fairly large subsection of feminism has taken to what can literally only be described as white straight cis male hatred. I especially have disdain for the male tears jokes as it further encourages men not to be expressive emotionally when people are walking around drinking from their "tears".

    - Trigger Warnings/Safe Spaces in college - This has become so much of a friggin mess that Obama himself had to comment on the state of things. College students are adults and thanks to trigger warning and safe spaces they're being coddled like children. Sometimes you need to be uncomfortable and sometimes you need to have your views of the world challenged. It's how we grow up and we learn. Now I understand that some people might have experienced certain types of trauma and I'm more than open to the idea of having a mental health professional give essential doctor's excuses to students if they feel a topic or material might be too overwhelming for them, but letting people self-diagnose what they can/cannot handle to me seems like a bad way of handling things.

    Privilege - This one isn't necessarily bad because it's 100% false though I do believe it's overhyped. My major concern with this is it's less about about addressing inequalities and more about pointing the finger and gulting others. I think it stiffles the conversation and puts would be allies on the defensive. Any reasonable person understands that black people and poor people get treated unfairly by the police, but when you instead turn your focus on trying to guilt them you turn someone who would have gladly helped you deal with this problem into someone who is attack and must defend themselves.

    Guilty until proven innocent - This one is probably the most terrifying thing feminism wants to do. They want to overhaul rape law and place the burden of proof onto the defendant in rape cases. This one goes against very foundation of the United States government, and is very dangerous. It would hand people ( specifically women ) the power to put anyone they wanted in jail with a sentence. Given the fact that false rape accusations do happen such as with the duke lacross rape hoax and the rolling stone UVA rape hoax this is a very very dangerous thing feminism wants people to have the power to do.

    Microagressions - This one is really really annoying. This is literally feminism's justification for why they can micromanage the words of anyone they want and pick out the tiniest of infractions and treat it like you had said the worst thing in the universe. It's a demand for an unrealistic standard of self-censorship and no one could possibly meet it.

    Intersectionality - This is feminism's justification for co-opting other movements. Most movements when cross over occurs would offer support and want to help the movement they have found themselves in line with. Feminism, however, wants more than that. They want to come into other movements and begin making the rules and telling these other groups what to do and how to behave. For the most part this goes the same way. Feminism comes into a movement, the movement gets split into two fractions, the movement devolves into a bunch of infighting, movement dies. This happened in the Occupy movement, this happened in the atheist community, this happened in gaming, this happened in the tech industry, and even a few religions have a feminist version these days.
     
    #4 Simple Thoughts, Oct 4, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  5. DreamerBoy17

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    I view this in the same way as the recent LGBT thread. Within any large group or movement, there's going to be squabbling and disagreement simply because one cannot get that many people to agree.
    I don't really understand cultural appropriation either. Like someone else said, it seems to be a way of dividing humans even more by restricting what others can and can't do based on race. If some white person wants to wear cornrows, good for them! If a black person wants to wear cornrows, good for them too! Hair doesn't specifically belong to one culture. Nor should black people be shamed for wearing their hair in this way.
    I've found that feminism doesn't really have an overlying definition. It depends on what it means to you. My definition is that it is the belief that men and women should be equal in society and the pursuit of this equality, but there are many who wouldn't completely agree with this sentiment. You don't have to agree with everything in the overarching movement to be a feminist.
     
  6. Invidia

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    Just a general thing I need to say. Simple Thoughts, I don't believe I agree with one thing you say. Not one. Not that I think the opposite in every respect, just that it doesn't resonate with me. You are looking at a progressive movement and trying to push all of it back, thereby being reactionary. There's a fine line between due critique and being negative at every turn for the sake of it.

    To answer the question about cultural appropriation a bit, I had this discussion a while ago with a Swedish-Indian girl in my old class. I started off expressing your sentiment that I thought people should be allowed to try out wearing a sari if they want to, because of the beauty of multiculturalism etc. But then she argued well and I really saw her point in the end. One might say that she disagreed with me and peacefully won the argument.
    I thought of it as such, in the end. If it is sincere, and one wishes to learn about that culture, or any culture, because one thinks it is fascinating and beautiful, and one respects that this is something that people who follow that tradition holds as part of themselves ad important to them, then one may go ahead and pursue that interest.
    However. There is a problem here. Globalization allows our minds to wander the realms of cultures far away. But it also capitalizes on this; it commercializes things and turns them into whispers of their old selves. Not that I think this would happen with the sari overnight. But take the Yin and Yang symbol. Now, as a religious person practising several religions, with Taoism (where the Yin and Yang symbol belongs) at the forefront, I am very acquainted with this. And seeing it in its commercialized form here in the West is one of the things that turned my attention to Taoism. But now that I am practising, it does annoy me slightly, when people walk around with Yin and Yang t-shirts or whatever. It is not a pretty little pattern. Nor is it overly sacred, that's not what I mean. But I don't much appreciate it being used in that way. And I imagine a lot of Hindus (I also follow Hinduism, but not very much), feel the same way about the sari.
    These symbols are part of who we are. We feel a sense of community, of family. And thus we can be a bit wary of outsiders. Is this ideal? No. We are supposed to be one human family. But then again; NOT under the commercialized conditions of globalization. That family is not worth having. So again, we become wary. But if one wanted to have a Yin and Yang tattoo or so, I would ask them "Why?" And if they were genuinely interested in the oppositely attracting forces of Yin and Yang giving rise to each other and engendering all things, then I would not have a problem with if that person identifies as a Taoist, their skin color or anything of the sort.
     
  7. Simple Thoughts

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    Never said you had to agree with me.

    Also I'm not really all that reactionary and progressive doesn't automatically mean good.

    We need to be progressive, but being progressive for the sake of being progressive is madness.

    Anyone who associates Reactionary with either automatically bad or good is wrong, and anyone who labels being progressive as automatically bad or good is also automatically wrong.


    So it should could down to intent?

    How do you objectively measure that?

    Are you going to cast judgement on everyone until they prove they legitmately understand what they are carrying around, OR are you planning to only cast judgement when someone is proven not to understand what they are carrying around.

    I like the yin/yang symbol. It has a nice design and my general understanding of what it represents I find admirable. I don't know much of anything about taoism, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the symbol.
     
  8. Invidia

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    Nah, I just had to get some frustration out.

    And btw, "being progressive for the sake of being progressive is madness", that's what Dolores Umbridge said, if you can remember.

    Intent, hmm... In a way. If you aren't sporting it like a douche but you're actually interested. And it's also about respect. Respect for that this is an old tradition that requires either learning about it specifically or being born into the culture to understand.

    I didn't intend to say that you cannot appreciate the symbol. That is completely besides my point, although it is adjacent. Your statement is a very individualistic one. And from your own perspective, I would agree with what you are saying. I don't think, either, that if you as an individual take a fancy to that symbol or whatever, then that is something inherently wrong for you to do personally. Nor is that what I am talking about. I am talking about the bigger picture in which symbols that have followed cultures through millenia and represent a lot of belonging to people in that culture, are being sold off as cheap trash on market stands to people who don't understand what it means but thinks it looks kinda nice. It is about respect for what others value as part of their culture.
     
    #8 Invidia, Oct 4, 2015
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  9. Simple Thoughts

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    Oh it's understandable. I'm aware when it comes to feminism I don't hold the popular opinion by any means. I don't even entirely hate feminism I just take issue with certain things. I'll be first in line to challenge pro-life morons and people against birth control for women. There are just certain aspects of the movement lately that I personally view as taking a bit of an orwellian turn.


    I am very much an individualist. I don't think people should be defined by what group they belong to. Being Black or white or male or female should be a secondary thought. What should truly matter is who you are as a person. Are you a jerk? Are you nice? What are your political views? What do you do? I believe the individual is most important, and identity should come second. That being said my worldview does include thoughts about groups. With the police treatment of black people for example I'm strongly opposed to that and I think it harms individuals of that particular group and attacks the very foundation of what I believe. People need to be judged as an individual and this behavior comes from seeing people by what they are as opposed to who they are.


    We live in a money dominated society. I personally don't care for the way everything gets undervalued in society. I don't believe it's inherently wrong to like something because it looks cool. Different people hold things at different levels of value. I believe that telling someone they can't do something because you or someone else doesn't like it is a direct attack on personal liberty and a person's individual right to self expression.
     
    #9 Simple Thoughts, Oct 4, 2015
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  10. LesbianThrasher

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    I've noticed that problem too. Personally, for me, feminism isn't my thing and I do want equality for everyone but I don't want to be a feminist just because I believe in equality. In my experience, they're hypocrites and do nothing for their cause so this doesn't surprise me much.
     
  11. TheWAU

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    Wow! Am I reading Empty Closet or a right wing MRM website?
     
  12. Invidia

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    Yah. IKR.
     
  13. Simple Thoughts

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    You're reading Empty Closets. Disagreeing with feminism does not make someone a MRM not in the slighest. Honestly, the fact that you instantly associate any criticism against feminism as something inherently bad should make you really reconsider your position because blind faith is always dangerous and nothing is above question and skepticism.
     
  14. Formality

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    Who are you to dictate what other people can and cannot wear?

    I understand that some people might not appreciate it if others wear "their" symbols. But you can't demand that one has to be indian or know about indian culture to be allowed to wear a sari.

    In all honesty what is so bad with people expressing themselves by wearing clothes that they find beautiful? What is bad about people using symbols that they appreciate whether because of the cultural meaning or just the pure aestetichs of the symbol/attire/whatever? Someone might be offended by it, don't ask me how, but in that case it is their problem. They can't just force the rest of the world to abide by their rules.

    The thing is, you can't take away other peoples freedom to use certain symbols or clothing just to accomodate someone elses feeling about that person wearing it. Where would we even draw the line? Is one allowed to eat sushi, or is that cultural appropriation? Is one allowed to wear cowboy hats?


    Less digressive, on the topic of feminism I'd have to agree with most of what Simple Thoughts has said in this thread.
     
  15. Simple Thoughts

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    and I agree with all you had to say. :slight_smile:
     
  16. Invidia

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    You just don't get it. It hasn't to do with what I think. It is about collective thinking within the group. Let's say you live in a neighborhood with a lot of people. Their treasured belong is the right for peace and quiet after 10 o'clock so their kids can sleep. Now imagine that this has been the tradition for centuries or millenia. Naturally it would becoming something important to the culture that they don't want people to infringe on or violate. Now I'm stuck 'cause I don't know how this would play out in my scenario, but the point is, they treasure this thing, this right, for what it is; peace and quiet. If someone starts selling off apartment buildings there or so for cheap money, that loss of of heritage and belonging can be hurtful to them. This is something many Westerners fail to grasp as we're living in such an individualistic society. It's "I can do whatever the fuck I want cause free speech and yoloswag."

    And if you'd read my above, you would see that I do not hold grudge againt engaging in one's curiosity toward external culture. My opinion is that one should, in that case, do so in a respectful way. Not shit all over it.
     
    #16 Invidia, Oct 4, 2015
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  17. Simple Thoughts

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    I'm genuinely lost at your example.

    I'm honestly not sure what the point you were trying to make with it was. Apartments being sold off is the choice of the landlord. That's their property and as such they can sell it off if they want to.

    It's not "I can do whatever the fuck I want" by the way.

    It's "I can do whatever the fuck I want as long as I'm not infringing on someone else's right to do whatever the fuck they want"

    People being jerks or uncaring is unavoidable and you can't really control that.

    Also I think the most offensive mindset is the collectivist mindset. When you only see people as their demographic I find that inherently wrong.
     
  18. loveislove01

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    I personally do think that people should wear whatever they want to. I mean, I would be offended if someone was wearing a sari and throwing around racial slurs. That's when it's disrespectful, but honestly I find it cute when someone tries to speak to you in your language, or is inspired by your cultural style. My family seems to be good with it, and really, everybody Indian that I knew was indifferent to it.
     
  19. Purp

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    Holy f:***:king sh:***:t,
    I can not believe what youve said. Compare your scenario to homophobic religious culture. It would be disrespectful to trod upon another culture like making noises at night past 10 because it's your right : It would be disrespectful to to trod upon the religious homophobic culture because it is an institution that has been around forever. and just like their peace and quiet "being a right", I suppose the homophobes shouldnt have to deal with our homosexuality present in their community... please stop.
     
  20. Formality

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    No, I'm pretty sure I get it. And yeah, it actually is about what YOU think because it is your opinion that I am arguing. I think it is you that don't get it judging from your latest argument which is deviating from the subject, which is cultural appropriation, completely.

    No one can claim something cultural as theirs and forbid anyone else from using it. I as they have the same right to do, wear or use it if I want to. If you start forbidding people that is not of the culture to use a certain cultural item/symbol then you are basically giving people privileges just because they are part of that culture. That is what is so hypocritical about many feminsts (not saying all) because they can blurt out things like "white privilege" as something negative while still being against cultural appropriation like it doesn't boil down to the same thing. In either case, wether you find cultural appropriation offensive or not, is besides the point because I don't think anyone actually wants to relinquish our freedom of expression.


    In response to your blatant phrasing "I can do whatever the fuck I want cause free speech and yoloswag.". The whole point of free speech is that I am supposed to be able to say what I want. Just because I have free speech doesn't mean I can DO whatever I want. Such matters are decided by other laws. Free speech means I can say whatever I want, and that is something we should want in a democracy. The whole point of having free speech is to make sure democracy stays intact. We can't forbid people from saying what they want just because it isn't to everyones liking, because once we do we no longer have liberty of thought. Most people will still be respectful of one another even though free speech allows for any opinion to be spoken, so the fact that some people use it to be offensive (remember that "offensive" is relative) is something we just have to deal with. If we start dismantling free speech by enforcing hate speech laws etc. it brings us one step closer to a totalitarian regime where opinion is controlled. Which sounds very extreme, but it is what it is.
     
    #20 Formality, Oct 4, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015