Did you know that Sunday services were conducted at the Capitol in Washington DC in the late 1700's? I am not trying to start an argument either, but the facts are there. ---------- Post added 25th Mar 2015 at 04:17 PM ---------- I agree with Bryan on this part though. Pew and Gallup are very clear indicators that this IS happening, especially in the north.
I'm not saying that non-religious will be a majority anytime soon. I'm just saying the percentage of non-religious is growing rapidly, faster than ever before. You're also correct that Christianity and other Abrahamic religions will be strong for many more years, though. The organized religious officials will make sure if that. I don't think it's safe to say that say, thousands of years from now, religions that are commonplace now will still be that way. Zorastrianism was very common in ancient civilization, and it eventually dies out and branched off into other religions. It's part of the theological ancestry tree, so to speak. Anti-gay religious views will however, die out eventually.
I agree. I'd say anti gay religious views will die out by 2060 at the lastest. But i wouldn't count on the deep south for much of anything especially since people down there still are very much living like it is 1901. I mean people are still very much brainwashed down there especially brainwashing their children's minds. I also believe that if religion does not become more progressive and accepting the religious majority will die out even faster and more people will become atheists because harsh religious extremism. That is coming from a christian myself.
I also think the anti-gay views will probably die out eventually, but unfortunately a lot of what this rapid legalization of gay marriage does is cause the other side to become more extreme, and you have speeches like that woman exhorting her fellow Christians to become martyrs against gay marriage. For a while at least, the anti-gay views might become more extreme, but they are also being pushed to the fringes. Do people who are still opposed to women voting and black people having rights have any say anymore in this day and age? Not really. There will always be crazies, but for the most part those people have been marginalized to the point of non-existence. The same thing will probably happen with the anti-gay attitudes, it just might take a while. Things like hating gays, censoring Harry Potter books, and fighting evolution in schools are the things that push young people away from Christianity. We aren't in a generation where "turn or burn" works anymore. Christians need to think of other ways to reach out if they want more people to join.
The culture in the South is very much different than in the North. The South has grown up on religion for the most part. From slavery to Jim Crow to women's suffrage to alcohol to anti-lgbt sentiment. Religion was used to justify the sentiments of Southern States in all of those instances. It would take special attention to have southern religions such as Southern Baptists and Pentecostals to become more progressive.
Exactly. That is why as a christian who loves nicely drawing lost christians to christ I use God's love and forgiveness as a tool to draw people in. Crazies who tell people they are going to hell is not the right way. Scare tactics never work. Yeah there is a such thing as hell and sin but I try to act as Jesus would and Jesus i don't think the first he would say to a lost shepherd "oh come with me or your going to hell". ---------- Post added 25th Mar 2015 at 12:43 PM ---------- That is way progressive christians need to bring more activity to the south. South seems to be always last with everything and the funny part it was the Southern democrats that were racists and now it is the southern republicans who are homophobic and dominating the south. I think the Southern Baptists have a strong presence in the south where it could be the only church in any town and there is no progressive influence.
I don't think it's fair to say that Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin are brainwashed. Simply believing the words in the book that defines our faith does not make us brainwashed. There are some highly intelligent Christians who believe the biblical definition of homosexuality being a sin is accurate. Christians who believe in the traditional understanding of Scripture are not brainwashed. I seriously hate that word and find it offensive. As for Christians needing to more and more go along with pop culture, I disagree this is a good thing. I don't believe in burning Harry Potter books, but Christians should not stop standing up for their most sacred beliefs just because secular society is espousing something different. Jesus said that following his way will frequently put us in opposition with the world. If that isn't happening, we may not be doing something right.
That isn't what was said, Zane. You are seeing offense where there is none. He said that some people in the south brainwash their children. You can disagree with that, but he didn't say that everyone who thinks homosexuality is a sin is brainwashed. And Christianity has changed plenty throughout its history. Christianity has been used to justify slavery, aggressive holy war, the subordination of women, and the idea that the sun revolves around the earth. These were nothing more than products of their time. They are for the most part seen as out of date now and Christianity was used to support these "time-specific" ideas. The way that many people see the lines against homosexuality now are the same ways that many people see Matthew 27:25, a line used throughout Christian history to justify persecution of the Jews.
How do you perceive the children are being brainwashed, Tennyson? Because I'm not sure I can agree at all that brainwashing is going on down there.
I've got a couple of questions for the people on this thread. They are kind of directed at Zane or anyone who agrees with him, but obviously not exclusively at such people. 1. I'm sure that you know that over the centuries books have been added to the canon and taken out. Even today, the Catholic Bible has 7 more books in the OT than most Protestant ones do. There are also many cases of words being mistranslated. Are all of these different versions sanctioned by God? Did he want people at some points in history to revere the Apocrypha and people at other times not do so? If so, that's a weirdly after-the-fact justification for things. It suggests that if God wanted us to pay less attention to, say, Romans 1, then the Holy Spirit would encourage Bible publishers to leave it out, and they would be unable to do so (en masse) without his approval. This suggests that if Bible publishers did decide to do that, then that would be evidence for that God now wanted us to carry out our lives without reference to that book. This reminds me of a concept from Chinese history, the Mandate of Heaven. Essentially, the current ruling dynasty clearly has a mandate from Heaven, otherwise they wouldn't be in power, and so everyone should serve them. But when someone else overthrows the dynasty, then that just proves that the old dynasty lost its mandate. The Mandate of Heaven therefore reinforces the status quo, while immediately justifying any changes to the status quo. <eats cookie> 2. This is basically a problem from philosophy called the Euthyphro dilemma, but do you think that (a) God arbitrarily chose some things to be right and others to be wrong and could just have easily have picked different things to be right, or do you think that (b) things are inherently right or wrong, and God has just told us what the inherent goodness of certain acts was (presumably with the benefit of an infinite amount of insight)? If it's the second, then do you think it must be possible to make a moral argument against homosexuality without recourse to the "because the Holy Spirit guided Paul to say so" argument? Do you think that there are downsides to gay people acting on their homosexuality that outweigh the benefits? I'm not trying to encourage you to say things that might generate anger from others on this forum, but do you think that those downsides are already clear or do you have faith that they will become clear in due course? I might now be confusing the issue, but whenever I look at the debates on LGBT rights, it looks like you can pretty easily divide people into Team Love and Team Hate, with a lot of conservative Christians looking an awful lot like a group whose main purpose is to make other people's lives unhappy. A lot of the proposed transphobic legislation in the US seems, in particular, like its only purpose is to be vindictive. And there is considerable overlap between the people behind this legislation and the people who insist that homosexuality is wrong.
There's a very good documentary on Netflix called Jesus Camp, if you ever get the chance to watch it. It's an eye opening documentary that shows the type of brainwashing and indoctrination that goes on in some circles of Christianity.
Zane7 my opinion comes from a very personal place. Do you even realize how many commit suicide because they are being told they are going to hell on a daily basis. IT is very dangerous territory and and can be self destructive to the human mind. A child growing up trapped in a very homophobic conservative household with no computer or phone to get support. Feeling lost and alone he commits suicide. Have you ever watched prayers for Bobby. A mother finds out her son is gay constantly warns him of hell and he commits suicide because of it. After his death she was in tears because her heart finally told her she was wrong to do that. That why I hold so strongly on to my beliefs and no I don't believe when someone says oh you are probably going to hell that is comes from a loving place. What i meant by brainwashing is teaching others to violently and emotionally abuse those who they think are sinners. I been around those kind of people and sometimes was near suicide because of them. ---------- Post added 25th Mar 2015 at 01:35 PM ---------- Zane7 have you ever heard of the Westboro Baptist Church and Fred Phelps that is the kind of brainwashing i am relating to.
Spoiler warning please! Prayers for Bobby was on my watchlist. I got as far as reading through this paragraph to the description of an unfortunate incident. I'm now hoping that that was part of the setup for the film.
Okay, Jesus Camp, is very scary. Agreed. It also in no way comes close to representing the overwhelming majority of Christians. I would go so far as to call Jesus Camp a cult, and it is indeed brainwashing. But you can't think that documentary is representative of how it typically is in the South. Dano, the Westboro Baptist Church is a hate group. Plain and simple. Every Christian I have spoken to does not support their actions in any way. They are not conducting themselves in a manner that is consistent with Scripture in the slightest. These types of fringe groups are not representative of Christianity. I believe in speaking the truth, but also in speaking the truth in love. Christian parents who try and teach their kids what the Bible says concerning homosexuality are not monsters. Of course, the parents need to be sensitive and not come at the children with guns blazing. But from a Christian perspective, not teaching kids what biblical truth is can be spiritually damaging. When parents try to give their kids a firm foundation in Christ to build their life on, that isn't wrong by default. I've seen Prayers For Bobby, and it is quite sad. But I don't think the mother was wrong for her views. She was simply wrong in her execution of how she presented those views. There's a lot of propaganda out there designed to make Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin look bad. Most of it is incredibly biased and extremely unfair. CuriousLiaison, you're right the Bible has changed throughout history. I believe there was a process it went through to ultimately give us what we have today. Yes, the Catholic Bible has more books. Honestly, I'm not sure what to make of that. Maybe God does use different Bibles or different translations of Bibles to reach different audiences. But there are some scriptural truths that remain unchanged throughout history that cannot so easily be set aside.
i think a big problem with "Christianity" is that not all who profess to be "Christians" seem to abide by Jesus' teachings and/or "pick and choose" the rules and regulations they seem to like most. As it is said in Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV): I think in the future LGBTers will grow up in a world where there is more acceptance and won't feel that their sexuality and religion/faith are diametrically opposed (at least in many parts of the Western world).
I am sorry Zane but i have to disagree with all you said. Millions of dead kids at the hands of homophobic parents is unjustifiable and to see someone who is gay themselves sort of defend them sickens me. The bullying and hate that stems from these kind of parents is dangerous and I cannot even bring myself to have respect for them. I am sorry i just cannot comprehend your mindset on a lot of things and I am sure you cannot comprehend either about a lot of things.
I take no offense, Dano, but we have to be careful to not allow our emotions (strong as they may be) take precedence over scriptural truth. I don't think it's quite fair to imply that the Christian influence of parents is the only reason why gay teens commit suicide. There are plenty of other factors that surely go into it. We as Christians cannot sacrifice truth just to make some people feel better. As I said, there is a way to speak the truth from a place of unconditional love and acceptance. Sadly, many Christians fail to acquire that balance.
Is this supposed to be something like "hate the sin, love the sinner"? That view is very detrimental towards the LGBT community as well.
Zane my emotions are not taking over my reality or way of thinking. What i believe about the bible comes from research i view as credible and also from the heart. If i truly believed homosexual acts were a sin I would admit to it. I am not being wishy washy or desperate for justification of my actions. Yeah there are many factors that comes into to play when a gay person commits suicide. It can be bullying, religion and mental health among other things. But i do think a lot of sadly stems from religion and the religious tactics that people use. Those religious are sadly creating non believers who may have believed otherwise. That is not always the case but it can be a factor.
