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General News Ben Afflack calls out Bill Maher and Sam Harris on Islam

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by SomeLeviathan, Oct 4, 2014.

  1. SomeLeviathan

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  2. MintberryCrunch

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    First of all, what Maher and Harris are saying about people having the right to criticize bad ideas and religions in general is absolutely true. People should not be afraid to say they have a problem with Islam or any other religion, and it's often liberals who feel that they cannot say anything negative about Islam. But you absolutely can and there are plenty of problems with Islam, so on that, I agree.

    However, the typical "why aren't Muslims condemning ISIS?" argument is a piss-poor one and in that sense, I agree it's a bad argument and essentially meaningless. Muslims ARE condemning ISIS, but they are not given near the attention that ISIS itself is given. So to assume that there's a problem with Islam because no one's condemning ISIS is ridiculous.
     
  3. SeaSalt

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    There no denying that this is a hot topic at the moment, Both sides make some fair points.
     
  4. Leader233

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    Maher is correct, try this for a test, post a defaced picture of Jesus on the internet, you will get hate emails. Post a defaced picture of Mohammed on the internet and you had better hide because people will come to kill you. Thats the difference!
     
  5. SomeLeviathan

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    Except no one is arguing that they don't have a right to criticize Islam. Liberal neutrality applies to the state, insofar that the interest of the state trumps that of your religion and sets up minimal conditions so we can all get along. Harris does not take the liberal democracy route of liberal democracy and his characterization of liberals being in fear of criticizing Islam is wrong.

    Are journalists threatened for criticizing Islam? Yes they certainly are, and this is a breach of the social contract, so to speak.

    You can believe whatever you want, religious or otherwise, but you can't go bomb a federal building if you don't get your way in an election. That is the issue with IS and you can condemn their actions without extending your condemnation onto an entire religion, of which IS is only a small representation.

    The problem into which Harris falls (and other members of the New Atheists) is characterizing an entire religion on the basis of actions of extremists or literal interpretations of the text, or claiming that these beliefs in and of themselves lead to violence, which they don't. They are used as cover for such violence but are not primary motivators.


    The lack of understanding about the foundations of liberalism and liberal democracy from someone who has a philosophy degree from Stanford is astounding, because Harris isn't even characterizing the liberal position properly in this case.

    agreed.

    eyeroll_vomit.gif
     
  6. King

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    Sam Harris is right.

    Liberal people constantly defend illiberal things. Liberals openly criticise right wing homophobic, which I agree with, they criticise Christianity, which I agree with, but then with Islam its different.

    Often these so called Liberal people openly defend this religion and anyone who speaks out, including Muslims themselves, are 'racist'. That is interesting as Muslims come from many racial and ethnic backgrounds, and this just highlights how people who are Liberals or Socialists don't want to debate this issue.

    I understand that many people think Muslims are terrorists and have a negative view toward individual Muslims and they do face discrimination, but why is that excuse given to defend a very concerning religion. I criticise Islam, but I also criticise Christianity and Judaism, so why can't left leaning people do the same? Its called being weak minded. So long as people also criticise other religions who share similar views, for example both Christianity and Islam have homophobic elements then what is the problem giving criticism?

    Before a certain individual comes on and misinterprets this discussion, people are allowed to criticise religions and it doesn't mean they dislike individual people who chose the follow or associate with this religion.

    It does appear that some Muslim people speak out when it comes to things like the offensive cartoons of the prophet Muhammed and do not line the streets when atrocities occur. This could be because some are frightened to speak out as people within their religion may criticise them, but also because people are angry about Alan Henning and Lee Rigby so they don't want to cause a confrontation from undesirable thugs in hoodies. I know many Muslims are deeply shocked by the atrocities, but its worth considering that Christians aren't obligated to kick up a fuss when there are Christian terrorist events, such as past events including the IRA.

    Overall all religions, including Islam are very illiberal and people should challenge this head on, but its best to avoid personally attacking the followers of such religions.
     
    #6 King, Oct 4, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
  7. Leader233

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    Islam is far more critical and destructive of gay people then Christians. Go to the Middle East be openly gay, you will not last a week. There is no moral equivalence between the West and Islam. Christians may not like you or critisize you but under Islam you are a dead man.
     
  8. King

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    Yes you have an interesting point Leader, Islam tends to be adhered to in a strong manner and that is even more of a reason why people should speak out about this religion rather than being an apologist for something which seeks to actively destroy LGBT rights.
     
  9. Leader233

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    Definitely, they are destructive of Gays and their rights as well as women's rights. If you are a woman and kill your rapist in self defense in Saudi Arabia you will be charged with murder.
     
  10. SeaSalt

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    Granted it does seem that whenever there is trouble in the world religion is always close.

    Ive given up trying to argue my opinion on these matters because it is a really confusing middle ground/ left/ right wing stance and Im not smart enought to explain it...
     
  11. SomeLeviathan

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    the state having liberal neutrality for religious beliefs =! defending illiberal positions.
    Except Harris is openly racist. He supports airport profiling of people who "look Islamic" which he described as individuals with dark skin wearing a Turban. The type of Islamophobia, that which ignores the existence of Indoneisa, grown from the post 9-11 is applicable to Middle Eastern Islamic individuals mainly and is inherently racist.
    How is Islam anymore concerning than any other religion?
    >presupposing left leaning individuals don't criticism tennets of religions which intrude on the rights of other individuals
    In Harris's case it absolutely does.
    decent point.
    so what? A liberal democratic doesn't institute a strong conception of the good in the state for the particular reason that it usually leads to tyranny, that doesn't mean that fascists and other totalitarian ideologes can't be members of a liberal democratic society or they can't be challenged.

    And it was like this for gay people even 100 years ago in Christian countries and still is like this in some Christian countries (Cyprus, cough cough) . It's almost like religions aren't monolithic.
     
  12. Leader233

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    It is not religion because that automatically asumes equivalence. go to Israel declare yourself gay, you will meet gay Jews. Go to Rome declare yourself Gay you will meet gay Catholics. Go to Pakistan declare yourself gay, we will either identify your body or you will be in prison. No equivalence NONE!
     
  13. SeaSalt

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    Fair point. Being gay was only made Legal in the UK about 50 years ago.
     
  14. BryanM

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    Somehow I can see this thread turning south quickly. Remember to keep it reasonable, guys.
     
  15. Leader233

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    You are correct, about the PAST. We live in the present and Islam has been destructive to women and Gays since 660 AD. Past, Present and Future. (Just ask ISIS or IRAN). You have as much of a place in an Islamic world being gay as a Jew stood in the 3rd Reich. Currently a number of Islamic groups are actively working to make it an Islamic world.
     
  16. SomeLeviathan

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    Uganda, Cyprus, and Russia are notably Christian and also very anti-homosexual.
    For a little while in Uganda you could be executed for being gay.

    Homophobia is not unique to Islam, or religion. The Bolsheviks after Lenin were very anti-male homosexuality and used it as a pretext to imprison people, so you can't reduce homophobia to religion, specifically Islam, when it historically and contemporarily is not the case.

    Christianityi s still actively being used to hate on and kill gay people in Uganda, Cyprus, and Russia.

    You also seem to be implying that other Western countries don't oppress women, which is ridiculous.
     
    #16 SomeLeviathan, Oct 4, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
  17. Leader233

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    If I am safe being Gay in 95% of Christian or Jewish or Buddhist etc countries but unsafe in 95% of Islamic countires there is no equivalence. As a former Military Officer who has been to several Islamic countires I can tell you, the nicest thing they would do to you is just make you pay a fine for being Gay, it goes far worse in the majority of them.
     
  18. SeaSalt

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    Why cant people just be nice?
     
  19. Leader233

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    because of causes whether religion or social justice, Mao killed 40 million people in the name of Social Justice.
     
  20. SomeLeviathan

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    well there's a 5% equivalence, even with your statistics for which you've provided no citation.

    And sense you've provided no actual source for the data, which you claim that 95% of Islamic countries have very homophobic cultures or 95% of Christian countries have very homophobic cultures, I have no reason to take your argument seriously.

    And even if your data is accurate, you still can't blame that homophobia on Islam because it is not unique to Islam or even religion. My point is not that Islamic countries are not homophobic, just that you cannot blame Islam as the source of that homophobia. It is a justification, not the cause.
    Marxism-Leninism-Maoism is not a social justice tradition in contemporary usage so I don't know what point you think you're making.