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Shame

Discussion in 'General Support and Advice' started by TheStormInside, Jul 18, 2014.

  1. TheStormInside

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    Why do I have to feel so much shame about who I am? I don't understand this "internalized homophobia." I never had issue with others' sexuality, but when it's my own, I seem to browbeat myself into feeling like I just haven't tried hard enough to change, or to keep people happy or lead an "easier" life I should just keep these "offensive" or "controversial" thoughts to myself. I feel like a failure. Why rock the boat?

    I know the logical responses to these questions. I know life is not easier in the closet. I know people can't choose to change their sexuality. I know there's nothing inherently offensive about being gay, it's just a prejudice. I've never given it much thought at all when I've learned other people were gay or bisexual, but it's different for myself. I just can't get past some of these feelings. I'm sorry, just... another bad day, I suppose. I don't know how I can ever tell people about my sexuality if I can't get past these moments of self-loathing. I can't expect them to accept me if I can't even accept me, can I?

    Have others gone through these feelings? How did you get past them, if you have?
     
  2. HTBO

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    I never had issue with other's sexuality either, but when it came to mine, it was more difficult to accept. Internalized homophobia is an internal negative view of homosexuality. This is something that occurs without our realizing it; we are socialized from young ages to feel shame if we have any same-sex thoughts or show same-sex behaviour. Sometimes as a result of this shame we repress our emotions and desires resulting in hiding our identity from ourselves. We also have a fear of rejection or not being considered normal and therefore try to avoid having any thoughts or participating in activities that will result in rejection or shame. Nonconformity is looked down on as can be seen by anyone who may look different and this prevents us from completely accepting ourselves. All of this becomes embodied; it's a big part of who we are. We may accept others because we're not homophobic in the same sense as someone who believes homosexuality is wrong, and openly expresses this, but only when it comes to ourselves and our own actions. To overcome this, you need to overcome the feelings of shame and anything else that makes you uncomfortable. I have a question, if you see a lesbian or gay couple and they are holding hands or kissing or any of the little things that couples do to show affection, what is your reaction? Does it make you uncomfortable? Picture yourself doing these same things and what is your reaction? Even though I had no problem with others, when I saw couples I became uncomfortable. I knew there is nothing wrong with it, yet it seemed unnatural, and then I felt bad for thinking that because it's the same things I want to do. I don't know if I'm explaining this right. What I did was I went to the gay village and spent many hours there watching couples until I became comfortable with it. If you don't have the type of area try gay bars. Not to necessarily meet anyone, just to become comfortable with it. I am no longer uncomfortable with others or with the thought of doing anything myself. It took a little while to get there, but I'm ready for anything:slight_smile:
    I hope this made sense
     
  3. evulcantn

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    HTBO - Good answer. I really like your response to her question. I am wondering what / where is a gay village? I have found that my own internalized homophobia is aggravated from living in an isolated area where no gay people are around. Thanks.
     
  4. Damien

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    Hi Storm,
    you would know already that I can relate to this feeling of shame that comes and goes. Today it isn't assailing me, but I know from the experience of the last few months that it will most likely return at some time. But I can also relate to the fact that, if it still tends to return, that seems to indicate a kind of deep-seated lack of acceptance still lurking deep within. Although I'm having a 'good day' today, when I ponder on it, I can sense that this 'internalized homophobia' still lurks within me as well, I'm not out of the woods yet in that regard.

    Be patient with yourself. Virtually all of us here were brought up in a culture which, from day one, conditioned us, about the myth (myth in the sense of 'an archetypal story that guides our inner life') of 'boy meets girl, and they live happily ever after'. But why can't it be 'boy meets boy' or 'girl meets girl'? This conditioning must surely seep into out psyches over the course of our lives, and while for some it is shed more easily, for some of us, it is not. (I'm in the latter category.)

    When I can see my counsellor again, this is going to be the first thing I bring up, I'd say. If you have a counsellor who is lgbt knowledgeable, surely they could assist you in dealing with some of the deeper issues that may be causing this? Obviously I cannot advise you properly, still having problems in accepting myself fully as well, try as I might. I know it's not just a matter of making positive affirmations. We need to dig a little deeper, perhaps. Professionals can help us to do this.

    Someone here said to me once, to imagine what I would say, what emotion I would respond with, if a friend came out to me as gay or lesbian, and said they were tormented by a sense of inner shame about it, and then to direct that same kindness and self-acceptance onto myself. Really, if we are able to show kindness to others, we ought to then realize that we, in the scheme of things, are no different to anyone else; so show yourself the same kindness you would show to another, regarding this. Easier said than done, I know, but that's what I was told.

    If you see you are hurting inside, have compassion for this being that you are. Even if the pain doesn't go away, extend some compassion. You can't help feeling the way you do. Sexual desire is not something we can conjure up. We either feel it, or we don't. If you happen to have it for the same gender, who is there to blame? There's no one, of course, and certainly not yourself. Self-acceptance regarding this is a journey, as we are told again and again, and it takes longer for some to make than for others. Be patient with yourself, and try to learn how to at least have compassion for yourself in this situation. It's a practice, it's something we do, to be kind to ourselves. It can be learned.

    On days like what you are experiencing, you might wonder "will I ever be able to accept myself"? I think you know the answer is, "yes". In time. In the meantime, allow the acceptance you feel from others here, to gradually melt away the resistance you feel towards yourself. I'd say everyone who has read your story here accepts you, and so do I, Storm - just as you are. (*hug*)

    Damien.
     
  5. HTBO

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    The gay village is what the gay area where I live is called. It's nice during the summer when it's closed off to traffic and you can walk in the streets:slight_smile: It would be difficult living in an isolated area. It may not be that there are no gay people around, but that they are much more difficult to find. I'm not sure how you can meet people but maybe see if there are any online sites in your area and begin there. Other gay people are probably also trying to find a way to meet others.
     
  6. Fallingdown7

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    I feel the same way, Storm. It's just so difficult sometimes.
     
  7. Nychthemeron

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    I also feel shame.

    I think it's less on how I'm viewing myself and more of how people view me.

    I keep thinking my parents are disappointed and my sisters view me as attention-seeking. It hurts me, and that's why I'm so embarrassed when I bring it up. I always cry when I talk to my mother about it, too, and even if she says she loves me, I don't know if I can believe it.

    Maybe this is happening to you, too.
     
  8. HTBO

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    This is also part of the shame experience. We feel rejected, and sometimes that's not the case, but how we perceive others' actions. Unless they are behaving in a manner that suggests they are disappointed or have told you this, then be kind to yourself and accept that may not be the case. Feeling like others are disappointed in you is relative to your own perceptions and acceptance of yourself. When you overcome this and begin to feel pride and have self-esteem you won't feel the disappointment from others, but acceptance. We project our feelings onto others and then that's what we see. If she says she loves you, believe it, she does. It's you not accepting and loving yourself that you see.
     
  9. TheStormInside

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    That is definitely what I am experiencing. The environment I grew up in was not very accepting. At my high school there were two out people, one guy who was bi and one lesbian, and they were mistreated a lot for it. They were acquaintances and I held nothing against them, but I also never understood why they would have wanted to come out in that environment at the time. Before then my only knowledge of homosexuality was as an insult. While my mother has never expressed explicit views one way or the other about gay people my father clearly has some homophobic tendencies. I may be projecting, but growing up I always worried he thought I was gay and that was part of why he never seemed to be able to accept me. I was also harassed and bullied a lot and called a lesbian, myself, at school. I've never had good self esteem, I've always been hard on myself for everything in my life so I shouldn't be too surprised that I am so hard on myself for this.

    I think some of it may be about control... I feel like I should have control over my self and my desires, but I think I need to accept that this is just my body and my mind, and no amount of will will change it, nor should it have to. I have to learn to be at ease with what is natural for me.

    Thank you for the excellent questions. I guess there are some things I didn't want to admit, even to myself. So I've known various gay and bisexual people throughout my life, unfortunately I've not been in close contact with any of them recently to talk about this kind of thing with, but now that I think on it I've never spent much time around actual same sex couples, just individuals. When I see gay couples I feel a little happy because I'm glad they can be out and about openly where I live. At the same time, though it feels a little "off" like something is not right or out of sync. I woudln't even describe it as discomfort, but more like, like you said, it feels a little unnatural. And I also feel bad for thinking that, because I know there's nothing wrong with it. If I think about myself with another woman it makes me calm and happy, though I'm not sure if I could feel relaxed in public with public displays of affection or not, as I'm worried about looks or judgement :/.

    Your suggestions is a good one. I don't really think there is a gay village where I live, if there is, how would I go about finding one? I'm fortunate in that my area seems fairly accepting and I do from time to time see gay couples just wherever, but I don't know if there's an area where I could hang around and immerse myself in that culture. I'm not sure if I could manage a gay bar... I can't really even hang around in a typical bar myself, I'm incredibly shy, and I don't drink, so it's very much an uncomfortable element for me.

    I think you're right that spending more time with gay people could help, though. There are other aspects of myself I've had a hard time being open about, too, I guess most innocuous being my totally geeky interests. I was always teased about them and was embarrassed to talk about them until I met a lot of other people who shared the same interests, now I feel a lot more at ease about it and don't give a whip whether people think I'm lame or immature. So by that logic meeting other gay people could probably help similarly?

    You're totally right, Damien, and I should extend the same compassion toward myself that I would for others. I've never been very good at being kind to myself, however, so it likely is a much deeper issue. Even if I find myself combatting negative thoughts with logic I sometimes find a voice telling me I don't deserve this compassion nor do I deserve happiness. I should be torturing myself. This obviously creates a self-perpetuating shame cycle. I've tried to talk friends with depression through just that by telling them "Who WOULD deserve such pain? You certainly don't, but why would ANYONE?" Somehow it still makes more sense for them than it does for me :dry:

    I do have a therapist, she knows LGBT issues and is gay herself. In some ways this is great, in others in all honesty I am a little worried about offending her with my thoughts! I realize that's a little crazy. Maybe I need to just outright tell her that to see if that will help me get past it.

    I'm sorry you both are going through the same thing, but thank you, too, for sharing. It helps to know I'm not alone in these feelings. I feel shame for HAVING shame, if that even makes sense. I feel like I almost have a responsibility to be out and proud, but I know that's silly and that I just need to work on being ok with me for now.

    Nychthemeron- I am definitely feeling that. I am not out to my family yet, but I am really terrified of their reaction, especially my father's, because I think I'll be a huge disappointment. I don't expect them to cut me out or disown me, but I don't expect them to be ok with things right away, either. My mom will likely be a lot more understanding than my dad. There were times earlier in my life that my sexuality was called into question by others. At that time I wasn't ready to see it myself so being unaware, I denied it, but a part of me has always worried they thought I was gay and that is why we never got along. On the other hand I have no evidence for this so it may take them by complete surprise, and I doubt they will consider it a happy one.
     
    #9 TheStormInside, Jul 19, 2014
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  10. Nychthemeron

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    I don't think any parent would want their kid to be gay, not because they disapprove, but because they don't want their child to face harassment, discrimination, and hate from others. So perhaps your parents will be the same way.

    Many parents won't be okay right away, because, as you said, it's a surprise. Should they be surprised? I don't think so, but most likely, they will. A lot of people assume their children are straight until told otherwise, and some of these people are perfectly OK with it.

    You're their daughter. Always has been, always will be. Your being gay has no affect on that.

    If you decide to come out to them, one day, make sure they know that being gay is simply another part of you. It's not all you are. They need to understand that.

    And, feeling shame for feeling shame does make sense, and I feel the same way. I wish I could be less embarrassed and ashamed, but it's not quite that easy.
     
  11. stocking

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    I actually went through this and had a hard time accepting myself when I first learned that I'm lesbian and I was able to accept others but not myself , It took me a while to get use to it but I did get use to it pretty quick but for years and even coming to the realization that I''m lesbian that I did go through internalized homophobia
     
  12. TheStormInside

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    Thanks, Nychthemeron. This is the kind of reaction I expect from my mother (if I'm being optimistic... that she'll be very very upset because it means adversity for me. There are times where I have to comfort her and I may find myself in that situation. She's a very sweet woman. There have been times however that things have come out of her mouth that shocked me, and I'm really, really hoping this won't be one of those times.

    As for my father... he's my father, I love him, I know he loves me, but to be frank, he can be kind of an asshole. I'm not the first person to call him that, and I definitely won't be the last, and he seems to take a perverse kind of pride in it :icon_roll . He disparages me for most everything else in my life, so he likely will criticize and condescend to me for this, too. I didn't even consider this myself, but my friend said he's likely to deny it, and he may be spot on there. I could see my father refusing to acknowledge my sexuality and telling me I'm wrong or ridiculous. He also makes rather homophobic comments, so I know he's uncomfortable with gay people.

    I don't plan on telling either of my parents until I'm feeling much more secure with myself, probably not until I find myself in a serious relationship, or I become otherwise involved enough in the LGBT community that it's difficult to hide it.

    Thanks for sharing, Stocking. I'm glad you've been able to come to terms with it. It must have been particularly rough with your very homophobic family :/
     
  13. stocking

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    It was and still is very rough
     
  14. Damien

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    I feel sorry for girls / women who are put down by their fathers, and I cannot comprehend why some fathers do this, either. My ex also was put down for a lot of things by her dad while growing up, and it has had some impacts on her which she still seems to be dealing with. I'm kind of the opposite in this regard. I don't just cherish my two daughters, I encourage them; point out any negative behaviours they need to change, yes, but as much as possible in a sensitive and kindly manner, and in order to help them (that's part of a parent's role, to guide children to what is good, and away from what is harmful). But above all, I make sure they know how much I love and appreciate both of them as the unique individuals that they are. They don't have to fit some mold imposed on them by others, not even by me. I feel sad for you that you didn't have this while growing up, but as you are an adult now, it might be worth considering that even if your father's reaction is negative if or when you eventually tell him, to separate the emotional reaction which may arise from 'child-like' wishes for love and acceptance from our parents - which even as adults, many of us still subconsciously hold on to - and the present, in which, as a grown woman, it does not ultimately matter what he, or anyone, thinks of you, because it's your life and you don't need anyone's approval, not even that of your parents, to live it as you see fit.
     
    #14 Damien, Jul 19, 2014
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  15. TheStormInside

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    I'm sorry :frowning2: . It sure sounds like it from your other posts. Will it be possible for you to get your own place in the near future?

    Thanks, Damien, it definitely still affects me. I think (genetics aside, as that's definitely a factor as well) a lot of my emotional issues now still go back to the fact that my formative years were spent being berated at home and teased/bullied at school. No place was really safe.

    I should try not to be too hard on my parents, too, though. They put a roof over my head, they cared for me, fed me, and so on. Never laid a hand on me. The borderline verbal/emotional abuse was rough, though. I know both of my parents had very difficult childhoods themselves, much more difficult than mine, and that they both did the best they could, however. My father has fortunately mellowed in recent years, hopefully it's a trend that continues, though when I confront him with this news I don't exactly expect a calm reaction.

    I'm glad you're so accepting of your daughters. I wish I could have grown up in an environment like that, too, but what's done is done, heh. I know you're right, I still have this desire to please my parents despite the fact that I'm an adult living independently now. I am still fairly close to my family... we don't talk incredibly often but when we get together the emotional bond is still there of course, and my mom still tries to stay fairly involved in our lives. Since I don't have a separate family of my own I guess I still feel a bit beholden to them in that regard. I do have a group of friends here now, I'm not sure we're quite a "family" but we do joke that we are a makeshift family of sorts. They're the people that I plan to come out to first, and I expect to be accepting, and they're likely the people I'll have to lean on if things with my biological family do not go so well. Maybe I should try to view this as another step toward independence and autonomy.
     
  16. wanderinggirl

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    To answer your original question, I've started letting go of shame by letting go of reasons why I can't be gay... ok let me explain. I was so convinced that I was straight and that my experience was the typical straight experience, that when I came out to myself all of a sudden I had all the voices in the back of my head listing these reasons why I couldn't be into women/generally queer:
    -I had kindof a bad experience with a guy; this is just a phase in the aftermath of that.
    -I am just dressing masculine to push guys away and to re-live my childhood tomboy phase.
    -X people out of my high school graduating class have come out as gay since; it's not statistically possible for me to also be queer (because that's how statistics, and sexuality, work...)
    -Nobody in my family that I know of is queer, so why would I be?
    -My friends are right I'm probably just doing this for attention.
    -Maybe I'm doing this because it's the trendy thing to do.
    ...etc etc.

    I realized that shame and these reasons why are interconnected, because these reasons turn genuine attraction into an indicator of personality flaws: as if this phase meant I was attention seeking, fickle, lacked self-awareness, superficial.

    I decided to let go of these excuses, and instead began thinking: "okay let's assume I'm queer. Let's live life with this assumption, and if it ever doesn't feel right anymore then I'll reconsider." And once I stopped listing the reasons why I couldn't be queer (all of which make attraction seem like this thing you consciously decide on) I started to get more comfortable with it. I'm still working through it, but letting go of the negative associations I had with queerness is really helping me work through the shame.
     
  17. TheStormInside

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    Thanks for your response, wanderinggirl. It's an interesting perspective and it took me a bit wrap my mind around what you were saying, but I think it makes sense to me now, and you're right.

    I don't know if ever considered my life "typical" of the straight experience like you had, I remember even remarking once to the question "You're straight right? I just assumed you were straight" with "That's what I assume, too" because "straight" seemed the easiest answer to questions I was not yet willing to really ask myself.

    But I do see what you mean... for me the reasons why I "can't be gay"
    -No one else in my family is gay, isn't it supposed to be genetic somewhat? (like you, heh)
    -I have social anxiety, I am not comfortable around guys because of that.
    -I have sensory issues, that must be why I didn't like my ex touching me.
    -I don't have much experience, if I found the "right guy" everything would work out.
    -If I were really gay I would have figured this out much younger.

    None of which, as you said, have anything to do with attraction but more to do with personality flaws. I also realized that being a lesbian is not about not liking men, it's about liking women. I think that's an important distinction I need to remind myself to make in my mind, because part of me still feels like I "failed" at being straight. That in itself implies that attraction to men and LACK of attraction to men is more important than my attraction to women, when in fact the opposite should be true.
     
  18. thekillingmoon

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    When you've been told your whole life that being straight is the only way, it's not surprising you feel like that. I think it's also very likely to have internalized homophobia when your social circle is made entirely of straight people. Always being the only gay person in the group would certainly make you feel flawed.

    I used to want to never come out, even now I have moments of being around straight people and feeling guilty thinking what would they think if they knew. And seeing how my family is completely homophobic I can't turn to them for support. What changed my perspective was talking to other gay women and especially those who don't believe there is anything wrong with it and are not afraid to be open about who they are. If those people can be comfortable with themselves, why can't I. So it was partly that and partly I started feeling angry having to be ashamed of myself when I haven't done anything wrong. I can't think of one logical reason why it would be wrong for me to love a woman. There are a bunch of flawed arguments and ignorant assumptions that homophobic people usually give because they don't know better or because they're too stuck in their own self-righteous view of morality.

    In a nutshell, eventually you become tired if hiding it and lying. While I still don't jump on every opportunity to let someone know I'm gay, I realized I'll be fine with mentioning it in a conversation if we were discussing dating. In a weird way I just don't care anymore. If people are going to hate me for it, so be it.
     
  19. TheStormInside

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    Thanks, thekillingmoon. You're right, being straight is what we're "supposed" to do and even thinking about doing something different seems hard to consider at times. I *think*, actually, one of my friends is bisexual. She's not actually come out to me, but she has (while rather drunk) mentioned an ex girlfriend, and occasionally comments on hot actresses. She's married to a guy now, however. She's also probably my closest friend, and the person I planned to talk to about all of this first, but she's had a lot going on in her life that has made it difficult for me to be able to find an appropriate time to do so. As for the rest of them, straight as arrows as far as I am aware.

    I really, really don't want to have to deal with coming out. Think of someone afraid of public speaking and multiply it by 10, and there you have my fear, haha. I have little doubt I'll be accepted by my friends (family is more of an issue as I've already mentioned) but just having to have the attention on me, say the words, and likely explain myself seems incredibly daunting. I do know I have to do it eventually, however.

    How did you end up meeting other gay women? Are they people you knew in real life, or online? I would like to meet more other LGBT people, but as I'm not really out I feel like my options are limited at this point. It sounds like talking with them helped you a lot, and that's great :slight_smile: .
     
  20. Budweiser

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    It can be very scary to have the minority opinion in the room. Terrifying, in fact. So, I would like to share with you this short article that has helped me when faced with people's anger and disapproval.