Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by Bastion, May 7, 2021.
That’s cool it’s called a conversation after all
Oh, yes. I understand. Analytical people do want to know how things work and about cause and effect. Many, many people are like this.
Is the development of sexual orientation and development of sexual attraction two different things?
In the first half of my life I was given many reasons to find women attractive and even more reasons to find men unattractive, irregardless of my Bisexual desires.
while I have had a few decent male friends, getting along with guys in general has always been difficult for me and I don’t trust them. A lot of this stems from being treated badly by so many males. Women on the other hand have always treated me much better.
That's a difficult thing to pinpoint. I've always found male bodies more attractive than females, yet men used to frighten me because of some of the trauma I've endured... while I also hated females for the same reason. "Fear and simply hate" Two different reactions, but both were "aversions". I'm not sure, but I believe "seeing a body and being attracted to it" and then "loving/hating someone for how they behave" happen in different parts of the brain.
I also find men's mannerisms more attractive than womens. I do not find typical female behavior attractive, in fact I find it quite repulsive. I also find effeminate men to be unattractive as well. I don't know why that is. Before, when I was a teen I simply didn't care for women. They annoyed me but I don't think I hated them... but the older I got the more I disliked them for some reason. Men on the other hand, when the fear subsided and I started opening up to my sexuality again I found it to be elating.
Another reason I'm certain about what I'm certain about. Other than my mother growing into a bitchy person over the years i've never had a reason to hate females. Both my mother and father abused me later in my life, so there's no reason I should dislike females any more than I do males. I don't really "hate" females, I just hate the way they act/talk. I've had a lot of female friends but they were often "tomboyish" or "butchy".
My father abused me far worse than my mother. He was a violent alcoholic. My mother was simply a crazy bitch. They were both alcoholic in my teenage years. My post traumatic stress put "stress" on them both and tore the family apart. I left her to live with my dad because, at the time, she was more volatile than he was but that quickly changed.
I actually plotted my father's murder, it was that bad... so again.
I feel like I'm obsessed with this topic because of the trauma I went through for being gay, in fact. I was severely beaten on multiple occasions by adults and children, together, because I was the gay kid. Knocked unconscious, stoned and trampled, lost teeth, bloodied and bruised. I was 11 years old. It went on for a few months. They found out my best friend and I were boyfriends... we were gay and they ground me into the dirt for it. To this day I still don't know what happened to my friend. I never saw him again.
I watched another boy go through the exact same thing, nearly dying. He had to be life flighted. All the years later I had to listen to all of the gay bashing while remaining silent otherwise I would get knocked out again. "Diseased, sick fucks. Hope they all die. AIDS kills f****s dead!! Haha!" So on, in an echo chamber all around me.. the torment that nobody can understand. The horror that I can only describe as "warfare". I suffered immensely for decades. Nobody can understand what that's like just from reading/hearing it. My life was turned upside down. I was Shell-Shocked, battle fatigued and broken boy for a long time. A shell of a human, dragging feet around, wide eyed and completely mentally shot-out, wandering aimless and confused in the fog of war around my life... derealization, depersonalization, a couple vivid hallucinations. I was completely spun out and my condition went on for a long time that way. I had my dignity ripped from me and any hope that I had for a future was snuffed out...
THEN my family/ home life began falling apart. THEN my parents turned into abusive, alcoholic psychopaths... a few years after all of this shit started happening did my family start abusing me, and my behavior started to become erratic and unruly... only then did my parents start to mistreat me.
I know for a fact that it was not trauma that made me this way, because nothing traumatic happened to me before that. I remember the days of my life before the chaos and I remember it clearly. Life was beautiful. I want people to understand that. I'm not "In a fog" like I used to be. I'm not repressing any memories. I'm not "blocking" anything out or forgetting anything... I don't have "whatever-it's-called", I am very lucid [now, after a lot of therapy] and I fully remember most of my life before the downhill spiral. My sexuality is not influenced by my outside environment. I've been told many times that it is and I want to punch people in the mouth for saying it: it is false! It's not true, it's only speculation. I am living proof. I had a crush on my male teacher at 6 years old. I had an intimate boyfriend when I was 11, consequentially getting my ass beat because of it... nobody should try to tell me what the facts of my life are.
My life did not influence it and I've always been like this. No one can say otherwise. I don't know what "enviornmental factors" made it that way but I know what didn't. Don't ever try to tell me that "I can't possibly know" because I do.
I lived through a god damn crucible... years of torment, both from strangers and family.
It didn't start until I was 11. My life was near perfect up until 1999.
This is very similar to how I feel but with women and men reversed.
As for the same sex desires, they seem to only exist in fantasies. I have never crushed on another male but have had plenty of crushes on women. Never had any kind of experiences with other males other than seen them nude a few times. I did play around with girls as a kid though.
There is nothing to explain the same sex desires except biology. I have read about fraternal birth order and it probably applies to my circumstance. It seems to run on my moms side of the family. There are a few members on her side that are very unlikely straight. They are all closeted but one it particular doesn’t hide it.
Sorry that you went through what you did growing up. That seems like something that would be very hard for someone who has not been through it to understand.
Yeah man. It all lies on a scale. There's different degrees on homosexuality/ heterosexuality.
but thank you. I just needed to let it out.
I'm not sure I totally follow this. But, if I understand this, you are comparing being gay or bisexual to a disability? In my case, I've learned to accept that being bisexual is now a good thing. It's sorta like the color of my eyes. Sure, I sometimes wished I had blue eyes instead of brown. But, then I wouldn't have had the curly brown hair either and I don't like curly blonde hair on guys. So, I take what I am now and have learned that being bisexual is who I am. I have brown eyes and both men and women I find attractive. So there.
For many of us though, it's just not that simple. Because we don't live in a society that treats homosexuality like the color of one's eyes. And, that is where, I believe, the real issues lie. That's why, I feel, understanding that homosexuality is just a function of nature (heredity, hormones, in utero environment, early childhood or any combination of these that fire off the gay is not something we control...) is, ultimately, a good thing. Because maybe, someday, being gay will be just accepted as another attribute of another human.
In full disclosure...
I stole this analogy from my sister. When our niece told her she was praying for her to no longer be gay she replied "And, I'm praying your eyes will be green and not blue".
No, sorry, I was comparing it to a strength or blessing that might emerge from a weakness of disability. Maybe if Michael Jordan didn't get cut from the freshman team he wouldn't have worked so hard... or someone born with weak muscles that rather than take healthy ones for granted builds them through exercise.
So in the case of the relation to trauma - maybe it is a way of our bodies and minds healing that we don't understand...
I agree- but some people here are discounting early childhood altogether - and I am not saying it's the 'cause' and maybe it has multiple 'causes' - but I do think the language here (not saying you personally or anyone on this thread, just in general) seems to be saying '[its' not my fault,] i was born this way' like it's something they have to believe to accept themselves.
I am also not be critical, I still struggle with self acceptance! - but when I am in acceptance of my sexuality, the fact that I am gay is a beautiful gift.
The “it’s not my fault. It’s not anyone’s fault” is important for some of us again because of religious and cultural backgrounds. I grew up Southern Baptist and my parents are still southern baptist. I’m coming out to them next month. I’m going to have to explain to them that just not being gay is not an option for me. That I didn’t just up and decide to be gay to get back at them or something and that my liberal friends didn’t just convince me to try gay for funsies. I was always gay. I will always be gay. I couldn’t change it if I wanted to. I’m also possibly going to have to explain that they themselves didn’t actively do anything to “make” me gay. At least not in a way they could have changed consciously. (Any more than they could have decided I should be 6 ft tall).
In a world where religious people are being taught (as we speak) that being lgbt is a sin and where teenagers and young adults are being sent to “therapy” to try to change it (being told they face Hell if they can’t), it’s important.
Ok but that is not science. And if you're saying 'science says I am born this way" - but we HAVE to think this way because of Religion - then it is no longer science.
And what if 'science' came to a different conclusion - more like what @Chip is saying - then what do you have?
All I am saying is I feel it's not a good foundation for self acceptance, at least for me.
I totally agree I didn't 'choose' to be gay and fought and denied it for years and suffered self hate and pain - but my path to acceptance didn't include this, i am not saying it is at all wrong if it is important for you - self acceptance is very personal.
I think @Unsure77 pretty much summed this up for many of us. I was a small, weak, fearful kid. I didn't want that to be me. So, I changed that with really hard work and I became what I wanted to be. I'm a pretty good athlete and I am pretty fearless. I also struggled with my attractions to other males. So, for a couple of decades, I worked on hiding those feelings and desires. No matter how good I was at "bettering myself" I could not change this about myself. And, for the longest time, I considered this something that needed changing. "Born this way" is what I know is who I am and understanding that has changed my whole outlook on my sexuality.
Okay. So am not sure I understand this analogy in particular but I can understand your point in general as it relates to acceptance.
And I want to say this am not contesting anything and I don’t have that much information on the subject that’s why I asked about those things.
It has also recently come to my attention that sexual orientation and sexual identity is not really the same thing. I can’t describe it here because its too long and comes from the work of Ritch C. Savin-Williams, Ph.D, who is a professor emeritus of developmental psychology at Cornell University who specializes in gay, lesbian, and bisexual research.
He has written many interesting books on many subjects relating to sexuality if one is curious to know more.
But from what I understood from him, as it relates to you for example, that you are well past questioning your sexual orientation and moved on to the stage of accepting and defining your sexual identity. I know it wasn’t easy but going through all that am sure it will enrich your life.
You kind of summarized in a nutshell the main points that led to the struggles of the LGBTQ community. The religious dogma, the pressures of the dominant culture and heteronormative conditioning. The repression. The conformity. That lack of support that still plagues people who live in small communities and towns that are still not accepting or hostile to some degree.
I think this is enough to cause anybody some struggles, traumas, hardships.
Maybe that’s what @Shadowsettler was talking about in the first place and was trying to explain. That his trauma came from such hateful people not necessarily related to his family upbringing.
My original point was "environment did not make me this way".
Everything else comes from environment: attitude, character, MH issues, my behavior.
But not my sexuality. It was not influenced from the outside. That was my whole point. A few people tried to tell me otherwise, "that I don't know that" when I f*ing do know... I know it for a fact.
sorry that I blew up earlier
Yes and I understood what you were saying. I knew that from your first couple of posts. Remember when you talked about first grade or very early childhood.
I know that things started to get bad afterwards when you were 11 after the incident with your boyfriend. That’s what i meant in my last post. That these circumstances were the trigger of a series of unfortunate events, struggles and hardship cause by hateful people.
And am sorry you went through that.