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The development of sexual orientation

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by Bastion, May 7, 2021.

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  1. out2019

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    I didn't anywhere say it did. I just said to @Chip I experienced all of these things... and earlier I said this:


     
  2. out2019

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    I totally agree, and also who is to say there is one 'cause' for being gay? Maybe there are multiple 'causes'
    And also things like childhood trauma, repression, denial can muddle things and also we have to make the choice to accept our sexuality - and that can take doing things that, well feel like 'choice'.

    There was a point during my acceptance journey that I found I was thinking/saying to myself "I want to be gay" - that didn't mean I thought it was a 'choice' but to start living like I accept it is a choice and takes action - especially if you have spent a lifetime in repression and denial.
     
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  3. Chip

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    Well, OK, then. But just for the record... the overwhelming majority of people who have attachment trauma do not realize they have it, and swear that they had perfect childhoods, until they do some work that uncovers it. Basically, certainty is a myth. So I'm not saying you have it, I'm saying certainty you didn't is probably not justified.

    But even if there is some attachment trauma (which is likely), that doesn't definitively predict why you're gay. Nor does hormone levels in pregnancy. It could be either. It could be something else.

    The point being... there are not any conclusive answers to this question. We know what we know, but the only way we could reliably test the various correlative hypotheses would be unethical, because it would require interventions with pregnant women, and then intervening with the upbringing of the child. You can delude yourself with a story that it is this or that, but the truth is, no one knows, and no one is likely to know.

    Thus, it seems like the whole back-and-forth is sort of pointless.
     
    #103 Chip, May 19, 2021
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
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  4. Chip

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    It's not that she didn't notice it. The kind of things I am talking about are a byproduct of epigenetic factors. So it may have been something that happened in the way your mother was raised, or the experiences that she had, that influences how she behaves, that she is not even aware of.

    The point being, these sorts of things don't have to be "world changing" to have a dramatic influence on hormone levels, especially if the parent was raised with the stresses or attachment traumas and has known nothing else... s/he would not even be aware that those stresses are there. But they still affect who that person becomes, how their hormone systems function, and so forth.

    As I said in my earlier message, it seems the entire conversation is pointless. But what I can tell you is that most of the people I've worked with who have uncovered the sorts of attachment traumas I'm speaking of were just as adamant as you are. Certainty in this sort of thing is a myth, and if we open ourselves up to possibilities, sometimes we learn something.
     
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  5. out2019

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    For a long time, I denied being gay, and as I mentioned personally, my searching for an 'answer' was really searching for a 'fix'... I sometimes wonder if, on the opposite end, the desire to 'blame' genetics might be motivated by shame. That it's not their 'choice'.
    Why should it matter, even if we could find 'the answer'?
    If I found the guy of my dreams and we fell in love, and someone came up with a 'straight' pill I wouldn't take it, and I wouldn't sit there wondering why I am attracted to him, I'd be thinking about other stuff :slight_smile:
     
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  6. Unsure77

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    In a world without homophobia and where religious people could and would keep their hands to themselves and not attempt to control everyone else’s bedrooms (be it their children’s or their neighbors), it wouldn’t matter. That’s not the world we live in.
     
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  7. Nickw

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    I like a lot of what your wrote. About not questioning why you might love someone. Just going with it.

    For some of us, though, understanding that there are root causes for homosexuality (or bisexuality in my case) that are not something that we had anything to do with is a comfort. I do agree that the desire to understand this might be based on shame for what we are.

    In my case, as a young man, having same sex desires made me believe that I had a perversion. This was based on a lack of understanding about what being a bisexual was. I spent many hours in the library secretly reading texts on sexuality and the studies by Kinsey. Understanding that there existed a body of scientific study on sexual orientation and the sexual behavior of humans was so important to me. If someone would have just told me to accept who I was and move on it would not have worked on me....at all. My whole life has been centered around achieving what I thought I was not capable of. I never accepted defeat. Without the knowledge that my sexuality was a done deal, that I had no control over, I would have continued to try and change it.

    We each deal with the acceptance of our sexuality in different ways.
     
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  8. Unsure77

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    I think part of it for me is knowing it’s a natural phenomenon. That it’s just a normal variation in the human condition (and in nature) and possibly has evolutionary ties and causes.

    I grew up being taught it was a choice and it was a defiance of God and that (essentially) God can’t really love you if you continually defy him and blah, blah. Knowing that, no, I was built this way and it’s just part of nature is comforting. That it’s not a disorder. It’s not “fixable”. I’m struggling to not see it as a problem.
     
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  9. Tightrope

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    More and more, more recent discussion is moving toward temperament. Temperament seems way more hereditary and maybe a little environmental. Thinking back to psychology, personality is partly inherited. You put together temperament, personality, and conditioning through life experiences and you have a big part of your answer. I am glad to see the discussion moving toward considering temperament because temperament is not a choice.
     
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  10. Shadowsettler

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    i know exactly where my trauma lies. I was gay long before any trauma I've experienced. I know this for a fact but it took a while for me to figure out.

    also, what is attachment trauma? I'm sure that I don't have it, if by that you mean "abandonment issues" then I don't.

    I don't believe childhood trauma plays a role in it. If anything it represses it. My trauma was all physical and psychological in nature, just wanted to put that out there.

    my family was very good to me... for a while, anyway.. up until I was about 13-14 and suddenly things started to fall to peices.

    I know, at least in my case, it was not trauma. I was a little boy who loved boys. It's really that simple for me...

    The "scientific method" would say that it's not trauma that causes it and I wont concede to that one. I would kms if it was true, that *"I wouldn't be gay if it weren't for trauma"* or *"I would be different if it weren't for trauma. I would likely commit suicide.

    I've battled with that notion for decades. that "being gay is a biproduct of trauma". I've fought hard with it's it for a long time but now I'm starting to see that it's likely biological for many different reasons and a lot of soul searching and a lot of research and a lot of looking back at my life... it's what makes the most sense to me.

    I apologize if I've pissed anyone off. Wasn't my intention.
     
    #110 Shadowsettler, May 20, 2021
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  11. Shadowsettler

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    I really do want to know the cause because I seem to be a very analytical person it's just the way I am
     
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  12. Bastion

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    So Um I also wasn’t sure what attachment trauma is so I looked it up online


    This is from an article entitled “healing the un remembered”


    “Early attachment trauma is a distressing or harmful experience that affects a child's ability to form healthy interpersonal relationships. It includes abuse, abandonment, and neglect of an infant or child prior to age two or three. These traumas can have subtle yet long-lasting effects on a person's emotional health”
     
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  13. Shadowsettler

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    I apologize to you all if I've upset you. I am upset myself. I hate having these arguments. I know my story. Everyone else knows theirs. I guess we can agree to disagree.
     
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  14. Unsure77

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    I'm not sure that Chip is claiming trauma causes you to be gay. I think he's saying it's something that influences how you are as an adult (your personality, how you interact with people, etc). I think what he's repeatedly said is that nobody knows what causes people to be gay. And it's unlikely we will ever definitively know because it's too difficult to test in an ethical way. They're not going to go in and intentionally screw with some pregnant woman's hormones or traumatize a child or whatever to see if the baby comes out gay. I may be mangling what he was saying, but that's how I took it.

    We know it's a naturally occurring phenomenon (because it happens a lot in nature). We know you can't forcibly change it, try as you might. But, we don't know what causes it for sure. Just some vague theories.
     
    #114 Unsure77, May 20, 2021
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  15. Shadowsettler

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    I understand now what he is trying to say and I apologize to him..

    As far as knowing the cause I'll argue that the development during pregnancy is the most reasonable and simplest explaination to me. It gives me some comfort as well
     
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  16. Unsure77

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    My suspicion is hormones and genetics. Partly because I have a genetic adrenal condition that causes me to have extra testosterone in my system (and I actually think I even read women with this condition are more likely to be lesbians) and partly because I have a cousin I strongly suspect was a lesbian and a couple of great aunts that make my brother and I go hmmm.
     
  17. Bastion

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    Maybe it’s easier on us to accept and be at peace if we believe that it’s all Mother Nature’s work that we are different but to me being more analytical i think there’s maybe more to it than that.
     
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  18. Bastion

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    This might be interesting

    “Savin-Williams and Diamond compared the sexes and looked at sexual identity trajectories among sexual minority youth. They concluded that differences among youths cannot be explained by gender alone. “No singular sexual identity model is capable of representing the diverse trajectories of male and female sexual identity development.” These researchers found that the context for sexual identity development is more likely to be emotionally oriented for female adolescents and sexually oriented for male adolescents”
     
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  19. out2019

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    Ok, but there is a difference between what you want to believe and what science says- and it seems to me if it has become an important political point, it's unlikely that objective science (if there is such a thing after all we're all human) can occur.


    - analogy- let's say you were born with a weak back muscles and this caused you to work out and develop skills that turned you into a great athlete- so Let's just say it was trauma (I know no one said it was) - maybe it's still not something you had anything to do with seeing it as the mind and body's way of healing- and seeing it as a gift - a special ability to express intimacy and love.
     
  20. Mihael

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    Hormones. That one for sure matters, especially if your levels are between male and female like mine.
     
    #120 Mihael, May 20, 2021
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