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Lesbians that have sex with men ?

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by stocking, Dec 9, 2013.

  1. nikidion

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    ...

    ...

    .......

    :dead:
     
  2. nikidion

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    But in one aspect you are right, WillowMaiden. You do not own the word.
    English language owns this word, in dictionaries you can read what exactly it means. Oxford dictionary defines it as 'A homosexual woman.' You can investigate further what 'homosexual' and 'woman' means. This is what has weight, not your personal definitions. When you become an authority such as Freud or Hegel, then your definitions will be taken into account and respected, but until then they are simply wrong as soon as your interpretations differ from dictionary definitions. You may not have a problem with people claiming that 2+2=99 or that Canada is the capital of France, but you not having a problem doesn't mean that those claims are correct. It's very simple.
     
  3. Huma

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    What do you have to say about closeted lesbians in heterosexual marriages (with and without kids)? Are they any less homosexual? I don't think so. Same goes for homosexual men in heterosexual marriages.

    In my opinion, labels aren't restrictions. Just because I label myself a lesbian doesn't mean I can't have sex with men, it just means I specifically want to have sex with women.

    Also, the definition of a lesbian is "a woman who is attracted to other women" not "a woman who has sexual relations with women only". Sexual activities and sexual orientation are two very different things.
     
  4. Fallingdown7

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    Nobody is saying that lesbians can't have sex with men- they just need to lack attraction to it. Marriages are a different thing; gay people in marriage have no desire or attraction to have sex with their spouse.

    I agree with Niki. We can't just "decide" what a word means. I can't identify as an african american if I have white heritage. I can't call myself german if I was born and raised in America with parents of american "blood". It just doesn't work. No matter how much I feel like calling myself that, I would be wrong.

    Otherwise I might as well make up my own words and expect people to communicate with me. Here:
    shdjsu sjdy8e kdlolghhtytkt juhjitewejkweoo oykrrlerbrm pugsjsdld pooiyuejek

    Maybe I'll type like that in every reply and then throw a fit when people don't understand what I'm talking about because I choose to believe these are real words that can form a sentence. That is exactly how every else is coming across.

    And maybe some lesbians don't mind when people call themselves whatever they want, but I personally find it to be offensive. Lesbians are ALREADY OPPRESSED BY OUR PHALLOCENTRIC CULTURE. You promote the fact you can still be a lesbian and be "cured" by a dick, that all lesbians secretly crave the dick, that It's okay for men to come up and fuck us.

    Out sexual experiences are not taken seriously. We're told that we *need* men, that we stay *virgins* until we find a man, that we'll eventually end up with a man.

    So now we have people claiming to be lesbians while promoting this as truth; that a lesbian NEEDS A MAN.

    And straight people will take us even less seriously. Female/Female sexual experiences will be marginalized even more than before.

    Nope, sorry, don't buy it.

    Ebro also has a point. Women who sleep with men have an extremely high STD risk compared to women who sleep with women exclusively. If I trust someone is a lesbian, I trust the fact that they would not want to sleep with men and put me in danger. They can have slept with men in the past, whatever, as long as that was a phase and they aren't going to do it again. Now if they want to do it again in the future and they call themselves bi, then I have no qualms because It's an honest statement.

    And added, do you have any idea how this effects the rest of us? Do you have any fucking clue how scared exclusive lesbians are of being raped, not being taken seriously, constantly being told we need men?

    How badly we want to fit in? How badly we want people to acknowledge our sexuality as exclusive to women, when nobody can understand it?

    You take our label away and we have NOTHING. We have NO where safe to go, NO ONE WILL UNDERSTAND US.
     
    #84 Fallingdown7, Apr 23, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2014
  5. Huma

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    I totally feel you on the 'phallocentric culture' sentiment. I for one have no interest in the penis. I do, however, believe that a lesbian can fall in love with a man (not his dick), even if just for a few months. Should you deprive her of her label?

    People label themselves for several reasons: to describe themselves, to find similar minded people, to narrow their preferences, etc. A person's labels are their own and are of no use to anyone else but them. It's a way they interact with people they like. However, there are people who abuse labels. Women who regularly engage in sex with men and claim they're lesbians are misleading and create a false display of lesbians, giving men hope that actual lesbians have sex with men. You know, movies, music videos and commercials targeted at men all give that false impression of lesbians. It's a male-dominated society. Men want everything, including sex with lesbians.

    About STDs, I feel everyone should let their partners know about their past sexual whereabouts and consider getting tested, regardless of sexual orientation.
     
  6. Milonov

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    Lesbians who have sex with men.

    Ain't this an oxymoron?

    Sure, we have a proverb in Russia that says "[If you tried something] once - [You are] not a pederast [yet]" and I assume the reverse is also true, but still...
     
  7. Fallingdown7

    Fallingdown7 Guest

    I'm in agreement with you, actually Huma. I think lesbians that fall in love with one man can still be lesbians. It's just the ones that actively desire sex with men for reasons of sexual attraction that are abusing the label, and making things harder for other queer identities that don't do the same.

    I do think lesbians can have some contact with men while still being lesbians, but there's a line there when it comes to be a mislabel.
     
  8. Alehkz

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    I dont know about you guys but Whenever I feel like sleeping with a man I dance the Charleston and that makes it all better...

    Yeah I agree with you both on the phallocentric culture. Women are their own demise, as ms. Simone deBeauvoir once wrote... Sadly. We don't want to be oppressed but our damn mercy on some makes us be taken less seriously. It just...sad. The best thing a girl can be is pas pute et pas soumise.
     
  9. sldanlm

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    I agree with this too. I'm not sure where that line is when it comes to labels, but just to be on the safe side I chose bi, because for me my relationship is more important than a label right now. If the relationship ends though, I don't see myself ever choosing to date any more guys.

    As far as STD's, even when I was a so called "gold star" lesbian I was tested and wanted all my same sex partners tested whenever I started a sexual relationship with them. Your partner may be a "gold star" lesbian but what about the women that she was with before you? Don't take chances, just get tested.
     
  10. Ebro1122

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    I totally agree with this. However, we must not ignore the facts. Lesbians that exclusively have sex with women have the lowest rates of sti's and std's. Lesbian's like myself feel safe knowing this and I will make the assumption that any lesbian I am intimate with, doesn't casually seek out sex with men. This is just one instance (among others) where
    lables do matter.
     
  11. stocking

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    wow you guys were busy with this thread while I was gone :lol:
    Ok I'm gonna add my two cents to this and I know people are not gonna like what I'm gonna say or get pissed of or whatever and maybe I might lose friends over this but ok .
    When I first made this thread I identified as bisexual and it really puzzled me how lesbian would sleep with men and not be bisexual so I wanted answers , at the time I was questioning my sexuality because even though I identified as bisexual I had no attraction to men I did not want to have sex with them or date them . I only wanted to do that with women .Now why Identified as bi with no attraction to men well I was hoping and yes it is bargaining that maybe one they I might like men and want to be with them or date them but my heart always belonged to women , watching this video made me realized I was not bisexual at all and if I hadn't watched it maybe I would be still labeling myself as bi , because while watching I kept thinking Damn I'm more lesbian than these 3 women put together . :lol: Now I think most women like that are probably homoromantic bisexuals
    a homoromantic bisexual is a bisexual that likes sleeping with both men and women but do not have romantic feelings for the opposite sex it is just sexual when it comes to the opposite sex and nothing more .
    now you may also be familiar with the term homoflexible which is quite similar to this a homosexual person that's open to have having sex with the opposite sex and does not get romantic or emotional feelings for them .
    Same with a heteromantic bisexual they only have emotional feelings for the opposite sex but like having sex with both sexes and are open to it also know as heteroflexbile .
    When most people think of bisexuality they think as it as being 50/50 meaning both emotionally attracted to men and women as well as sexually which is false . You can be bisexual and just like men sexually and like women emotionally and sexually . The only thing it takes to be bi is liking both sexes it doesn't say how much you should like them . Now the funniest thing I have seen here as well as other places is most people (not all ) wants to be anything but bisexual and is find taking up other labels like gay , lesbian and straight but once the bisexual comes into play it's like Your boxing me in, your judgmental , I hate labels I wish they would go way . Now bisexuals have it pretty damn hard
    they get flack from the straigth and the gay community so I can see why some people who are clearly bi will want to be anything else but bisexual , I really admire people that can say their bi and don't give a damn what people think and will correct idiots on their ignorance of bisexuality .
    Now if your a bisexual women that either has a preference for women or a homoromantic bisexual and I know from experience I used to use the label with bisexual with a preference for women label . You get a lot more men in your yard when you use the bi label than women . On top of that when you identify as bisexual lesbians are less likely to date you . Now let's all think of the stereotypes that come with being bisexual shall we I'll list them
    1. greedy
    2. can decide what they want
    3 unfaithful
    4 cheaters
    5. will leave you for a man
    Now if your homromantic or bi with a preference for women of course you wouldn't want to identify as this so what better to use than the word lesbian where you can get all and date all the women you want and occasionally when your single sleep with some men on the side you just want sex from . Now I've been hearing this I'm not bi because I don't sleep with men all the time and neither all due women that identify as bisexual either
    Heck you can be bisexual and still sleep with men once a year , you see when your routinely sleeping with men your bisexual you can call yourself a lesbian all you want it doesn't change the fact that your bisexual . bisexual women don't always sleep with men and women all the time some have monogamous relationships with the same or opposite sex and I find it very offensive when some women say this or use this to explain why their not bisexual . Also I want to address the anyone can call their self anything thing they want now if you agree with this then stick with it and what I mean by this this means if anyone wants to use labels for anything they want then no and I mean no then should be complaining meaning all orientations straight, gays , lesbians and bisexuals . For example if people want to say their bisexual just so they have an easier time to come out being gay then they should feel free to do so an no one should say anything , if a straight woman wants to call herself a lesbian when she's actually straight then no one should say anything about it , if a cis straight guy wants to say he's transsexual and not trans then he should do so and no one should speak on it and same with what's going on here . (I don't agree with this by the way ) But I find it funny that on here and else where when a bisexual person complains about a gay or lesbian person using their label as a stepping stone no one calls them judgmental or arrogant but if a lesbian or gay person or even a trans person speaks up about how people are using their label it's like How dear you tell me how to label myself your mean your judgmental , honestly I think this is just a tatic people use when they can't accept people are disagreeing with them , or they don't want to face the truth . Now if your gonna tell people that people can say and label their self how ever they want then it should be applied to everyone and not some . Because I know some bisexuals people can't stand when someone tells them their orientation is just a stepping stone from going straight to gay and we all know even to this day bisexuality is still not seen as a real orientation and no their is consequences from that . and I am definitely one of those lesbians that used it as a stepping stone so I'm not gonna run from that and been called out on it here two times . But I didn't call anyone arrogant or judgmental because I knew they were right I just didn't like being called out .
    If it wasn't for this video I wouldn't have figured that I'm a lesbian so yes I have a love hate relationship with this video and while asking this question I was trying to discover myself as well .
     
    #91 stocking, May 17, 2014
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
  12. Personally I never want to have sex with a guy again, ever.

    I like men as people, and I was not averse to having sex with them, because I mistook lack of aversion and liking them as people for actual sexual attraction, which it was not.

    I did it for various reasons, need for intimacy, closeness, but I always did it out of a misunderstood assumption that I am bisexual.
    Once I've realised that in fact I am not, then I don't see the point in doing something, I know will never make me happy! I did it because I though it would!

    I went so many years without sex since, I'd rather be celibate than have sex with anyone now, unless I want to be in a relationship with.

    I don't regret my past, but I also feel that had I not been taught that being gay is wrong, I would have saved myself all the trial and error stuff.

    I would not go out and actively date women, call myself gay and still sleep with men,no.
    In fact I did not date women for a while even because I was not sure if I was bisexual or gay! I understand that other women do it, I don't think they are any less gay, just not as committed 'to the cause' ;p.

    It has to do with a principle, you know? for me even a feminist principle: I believe that women are better off dating other women, and that dating men is bad for women's psyche.

    Also our culture is so obsessed with sex, it teaches us that its better to have even with somebody we are not attracted to, rather than wait for the right person.

    It took me a while to liberate myself from this thinking and doing so went hand in hand with my realisation that I want to get married to a woman at some point.

    ---------- Post added 17th May 2014 at 10:54 PM ----------

    Btw.

    I also think that lesbian is just really about 2 things:

    1) being attracted to women and wanting to be with them on an exclusive basis

    2) not wanting to date or sleep with men.

    so in my definition you can actually be bisexual in terms of sexual attractions and still be considered a lesbian, if you don't date men. You are just a bisexual lesbian. I know it will grate with some people, but this is what I genuinely think, because we need to stick together ;p
     
  13. stocking

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    I agree with you .
    on another topic why do you think people label lesbians man haters(which is not true by the way ) because we don't want to sleep with men and don't have sexual desire towards them . not saying it's impossible for a lesbian to sleep with a man butt if your seeking out occasionally your not a lesbian you can call yourself one but your not one . I honestly recently had a straight guy tell me because some lesbians have sex with men that all of us are some what bi and we don't act on it . Honestly I want my sexual orientation taken seriously and I'm tried of people using these women or telling stories about how they slept with a lesbian to prove that my orientation is not real because let's face some people will meet one lesbian in there life see them do something and associated it with all lesbians we don't' live in a world where lesbians sexual orientation is respected or seen as real and I have to listen to a dad and a mom that will tell me when topics about lesbians come up on the tv that all we need is a good dicking and when you have women like this calling themselves a lesbian it makes it look true . :dry:
     
    #93 stocking, May 17, 2014
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
  14. It is a difficult one! I think that really, only the people involved can make judgements about their sexuality, unfortunately.
    I think that those lesbians who occasionally sleep with guys are still gay if they feel they are. Maybe 'behavioural bisexuals' would be more accurate?
    There is a difference between being gay and feeling part of the community, and it does not enter into their minds that their actions could have any effect on the general perception of other gay women. It would be nice if they thought about it, but they don't have an obligation to do so, just as closeted gay officials don't have an obligation to come out. It's up to them, but directing negative feelings at them kind of harms us, I think.
    ,
    I think it is really just about heterosexism and as said above phallocentric culture, lesbians suffer because of it. If we lived outside of it and everybody could just like whom they like we would take peoples attraction at face value and nobody would take it as an indicator of something else.
    If somebody dislikes onion, but will eat something with onion occasionally, because they have no other options, it will not suddenly make them 'like it', nobody will take notice! *unless* the culture they lived in relied on everybody *loving* onion, then everybody will take notice and use it as a chance to voice their opinion.
    Its only our heterosexist culture in which this choice suddenly has a meaning, because 'liking onion" (liking men, or 'being straigh') is seen as this all important symbol of doing everything 'the right way', and not liking onion (men) is seen as 'weird'.

    Its only because our culture assigns moral values to one kind of sexuality, over another, that other peoples choices make others feel like their choices are being devalued.

    "Lesbians being man haters" is a sign of heterosexism again: because only in a culture which orders women to always be attracted to men, lack of attraction, or response, is seen as 'hate": only somebody who sees men as *entitled* to female responses would see that their lack of response constitutes 'hate'.

    For people who insist that having come in contact with a dick, will mean that you like it, I'll suggest asking them if the ate food that they don't feel as any taste, over and over again, would they grow to love it?

    But what it boils down to, when it comes to parents and comments on sexuality: its none of their business once you are over 18.
    Would they feel it is still their business, if you only liked ugly bold men with smelly feet?
    Being a lesbian does not mean that you'll never have children, if they are worried about that, explain that to them. Other than that, just shut the topic out of family conversation, say you don't comment on why your mother could ever date somebody with hairy legs, so it is only fair to expect the same.
     
  15. Fallingdown7

    Fallingdown7 Guest

    Another input:

    I just think people should be careful on their labels. I think some of these girls just don't identify as bi because of biphobia, however, I do think you can be a lesbian and still have some straight sexual experience; it's just that when you seek it out and derive pleasure from it...that's called bisexuality. As some people have said coming in contact with a dick doesn't always mean you like you it, and that doesn't make you not a lesbian. It's just different when you do like it and keep seeking it out, that becomes more of a sexual attraction and denial. If you're not romantically attracted to men, you'd be a homoromantic bisexual. Sexuality is only about who you desire sexually, nothing more. It's possible to be a lesbian who falls in love with men and dates men, as long as you don't desire them sexually, since the 'sex' part is what decides who you are.

    Okay, normally I'm not for identity policing myself, but I always thought it was extremely dangerous to lesbians that have exclusive attraction to women. Directing the hate toward them might harm us, but in a way It's understandable because we live in a phallocentric society. Exclusive lesbians have to constantly fear being raped or not being taken seriously by men. With or without these people, that wouldn't change, but we can't deny that it WILL make the rape culture much higher.

    I'm an exclusive lesbian that is only attracted to women, and I am also heterophobic. Not out of hate, but FEAR. I feel uncomfortable and anxious being around straight people and I feel like I can't come out to them. Straight men think I'm a challenge and I fear being raped by one. Straight women also try to sexually harass me if they're 'curious', they don't take my attractions seriously and constantly shove men down my throat, they tell me I'll die a virgin if I don't try the 'magical dick'. We as lesbians are raised to be fearful of straight people and men because we're left to fend for ourselves; we're scared of being put in danger. And this is an unfortunate reality for us, because I know I don't like feeling like a hateful bigot (I definitely don't hate hetero people, even if I completely fear them), that I want to love and accept everyone (and I try) but as long as our society is set up in a way where we feel unsafe, It's hard to completely trust and not make those assumptions. So that is why I feel like this is such a hot topic....when you go around enjoying sex with men (Not talking about a one time curious thing, being closeted, or not having known until later in life), it hurts the rest of us and pushes more heterosexism toward our way, which really isn't okay.

    I feel like labels have to make some sense. If I had slept with 100 men and called myself a virgin because it was just a casual thing, my partner might feel hurt and betrayed when they find out the truth, so I view this situation similar.
     
    #95 Fallingdown7, May 18, 2014
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  16. stocking

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    I think your misunderstanding me now I'm not talking about lesbians who were in denial in the past or couldn't accept their sexuality and slept with men in the past , or slept with with a lot of men as teenagers . I'm talking about women who continue to seek men out for sex who are out of the closet and can find other women to sleep with but choose to have sex with men for sexual pleasure to me that's a contradiction to what a lesbian really is .
    If your having sex with men routinely and saying your a lesbian and even continue to do so even when being out and even years later chances are your not a lesbian . that's what I think . These girls aren't in a spot where they have no choice or are doing it for survivor or trying to fit in or they can't find other women those are not the women I'm talking about and your right if we were more respected I think maybe less people would care but I've also heard straight people tell straight women who also occasionally sleep with women that they aren't straight either and that their bisexual to. The same with a straight man who occasionally sleep with men the same this is no different I think these people are bisexual but because of biphobia they do not want to label themselves as bi they have all right to call themselves whatever they want but what they do have affects on other people in the community .

    ---------- Post added 18th May 2014 at 09:49 AM ----------

    I agree with you falling and this is why I as a femme hadn't fulled come out of the closet because of this , and also this is why many femmes are still closeted and not out because we already have people telling us because we don't look like the stereotype that where automatically bisexual and on top of that when women do this it makes men think they have a chance with us .
     
  17. Interesting posts fallingdown7 and stocking

    I see the point about women who call themselves lesbian but seeking out men being dishonest about their sexuality.

    I can also relate to the feeling of heterophobia, but I think in my case I counteract it by the feeling of homophilia, and the only reason any interaction of lesbians with men seems so threatening is because it seems to prove heterosexists right.

    I think that heterosexual relationships are not the best way for humans to love each other and to bring up children. In my opinion homosexual love is superior because it does not carry the danger of pregnancy, and so does not infringe on individual freedom of the person I love.

    I see heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality as constructs, and of which heterosexuality is the most artificial and least 'natural' or human.

    Why? because love, intimacy and monogamy are natural human instincts, but in heterosexuality, if lived out to the full, they are paired with constant production of children, which is opposed to a sense of full humanity and autonomy, which love should help us achieve and not hinder us in achieving.

    In my view, which sees homosexuality as a more superior way of entering relationships, I don't see bisexuality as threatening, just a natural part of life and sexuality, the part which is tied up with wanting to produce offspring.
    We don't want to produce it all the time, for some people it might be never, or only once in life.

    Being sometimes sexually attracted to a person of the opposite sex, who seems to be an example of good genetic material for producing offspring should not have anything to do with wanting to have a romantic or long term relationship with that person. This is how I view bisexuality.

    Bisexuality, only only creates problems for lesbians in our topsy-turvy, patriarchal world, which sees heterosexual relationships as the norm.

    If women only ever had relationships with other women, and men with other men, and they occasionally met to produce children, there would be no problem!

    Heterosexism often views having children as the justification for heterosexual superiority, but the mere existence of homophobia shows that there is something about it, that makes them angry and envious of queers. That they are stuck to this breeding, biological way of life.

    Coming from this view, gives me strength to not be intimidated by heterosexism, because I know that heterosexuality is not natural, or 'right', it is just a way which constricts human sexuality and makes everybody into a cripple.

    We have a right to exist, not just because of some humanitarian 'to each of his own', but because our way of loving is just as good, if not better than straight love.

    I don't accept that heterosexuality is 'normal', I see it as a fake. It is not genetic.
    Genetic is only the aspect to want to procreate, which is also shared by gay people.

    Only when you still somehow recognise the legitimacy of heterosexuality, you are able to take to heart heterosexists views which equate some form of bisexuality with homosexuality not existing, when in fact it is heterosexuality which should be called out as a sham.

    I, personally would prefer to be with a woman who also shows homophilia:sees gay relationships as more legitimate, and her seeking out men might show that she is not really culturally gay.
    But then being culturally gay is only a response to heterosexism, and seeing out men is only threatening because how it gets interpreted in the context of heterosexism.

    In other words: if we lived in a world without heterosexism, it would not be threatening, because it would not matter a jack, beyond being a bit gross.
     
  18. ChromeNerd

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    I think some girls don't want to come out as bi because they prefer being with women. A lot of lesbians don't like bisexuals, so coming out as bi would make it harder for them.
     
  19. stocking

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    I don't agree with most of what you said but I do think you have interesting points but I think being gay, bisexual and heterosexual are natural to people , Look I've tried most of my life to like men and did some things I'm not proud of it has even drove me to depression and confusion . I do agree with what you said about being bisexual and wanting to date one sex over the other for some reason people think that being bisexual you have to be romantically into both sexes with is not true . now bisexual women do not intimated me their free to do what they want heck I would even date a bisexual women , I might even date women who occasionally sleep with men if they were up front with me about their sexual history .
     
  20. Fallingdown7

    Fallingdown7 Guest

    I don't think heterosexuality is inferior to homosexuality or bisexuality personally, I just hate the way most straight people act and how heterosexist they are (Even our allies are heterosexist). But I try to view all sexualities themselves as equals.

    However, I understand what you're saying, especially in regards to bisexuality.

    In my experience lesbians distrust bisexuals because of our society. It has to do with the fact women are pressured to submit to men and they have to be attracted to men to be normal. So lesbians see a woman as being attracted to a man equated to "a man being better than me". Being left for a man is seen as worse than being left for a woman because It's more valid. Lesbians are also told they can't have 'real' sex, so they may be afraid to sleep with a bisexual woman because the bi woman may later sleep with a man and say 'The man was my first time'.

    All of this is just based on assumption and fears that straight people force on us, of course. It's not always based in reality.

    But here's also the thing; If a lesbian is really insecure enough to distrust a bisexual, she would also distrust ALL lesbians who sleep with men to begin with. So changing the label wouldn't get someone anymore accepted in the lesbian community unless they're completely celibate from men, sadly /: