Don't want to be gay

There are a number of points I'm going to make, despite the fact that you don't seem to want to change your thinking at all. And as we have said you can't change being gay but you can change your thinking.

1) Experiences with other gays - you say that you have had a terrible experience with being gay. Are you talking about relationships with men or sexual experiences? Or are you talking about the attitude that gay community has - because all communities seeks to impose certain conduct and behaviour on others. The gay community can have its own prejudices just like any other community but not everyone is like that. I'm not stereotypically gay in behaviour, clothing, tone of voice etc but I am gay and that's just a fact about me. Just because you've had bad experiences with other gay people doesn't mean that we are all like that. Even if your bad experiences are on a personal level with guys you have been involved with - that is true of any relationship gay or straight. Some people are just terrible people and it's nothing to do with sexual orientation. However, your response to being gay seems to be more than just a fear of being hurt. It seems much more deep rooted.

2) Understanding from others - while all experience things at an individual level, common themes exist for people, like ourselves, who are outsiders of the prevailing narrative of right or wrong behaviour. Most of us will have experienced the desire not to be gay, to try and make ourselves straight and to feel guilty and ashamed of being gay. I know I thought that it was wrong to be and to feel gay but I realised that I would never be happy with a woman and why should I live a lie just to fit into the views of others. So yes, while your experience is unique the problems you face are the same we all face and it is more of a question of degree than of kind.

3) Strength/weakness - you seem to have a very physical sense of strength ("climbing a mountain, surviving after being stranded") which I agree demonstrate a form of strength but that is in no way exclusive of other kinds of strength (emotional, psychological, determination in the face of adversity, commitment to long term projects and so on).

"A fight to just be ALLOWED to live like the rest of the world. It's not a fight, it's a tantrum being thrown by a kid when they want to be treated like an adult and they won't stop until the parents give them what they want."

Here, you have lost me. What other kind of fight could be more crucial and more valuable than living life on the basis of equal treatment and respect as a fellow human being, in what way is it a tantrum to challenge the domination of religious and social attitudes that tell us we are worth less than others, what else can demonstrate strength than challenging the entire social order and seeking to be free of those who would seek to deny us a happy life? Why do you call it a tantrum - because we don't accept a set of values imposed upon us by those who make no attempt to understand us or would see us live lives of misery? Why should any of us accept those imposition upon our lives - I will not live a life of misery just to satisfy a set of moral demands that are imposed upon and which I do not accept.

4) Opposing other's happiness - even with your views on your own sexuality why do you derive joy from things which harm the lives of others? Even if you never accept that you are gay why do want others to miserable as well? What makes you want to extend your own misery to others? Jealously because they are happy? Anger that they don't see being gay as a problem, as a cancer? Regardless of your own views, the fact that others are able to live a happy life is a good thing. Each of us can only do what we think it best for ourselves - the gay community has been successful in helping each individual live freely and while it is not perfect it has brought about a great deal of legal equality, recognition and protection that otherwise we would not have.

Unless you are prepared to tells us why you are so opposed to being gay, rather than what you have done so far which is to state your disgust, we may just end up going round in circles.

 

You have a long way to go. The only good thing is you're young and you have lots of time to bide to reach self-acceptance. I just hope that you will be able to talk to the right people who can guide you or give you insights that perfectly hit the nail on the head.

It is annoying sometimes to hear repeatedly the phrase, "I know where you're coming from," I understand how you feel," isn't it? It's because sometimes one wishes they better KNOW what's in his head; how messed up inside his brain is.

Why don't you befriend your demons (things that you loathe or hate doing but you still end up doing)? Maybe when you're friends, you'll be able to tame them? Take control?

 

You can dislike it all you want but it's true. Not everyone here has been where you are it's true but I've been a member of this forum for quite a few years now and I have spoken to people who have written posts asking if anyone knows any cures they can try and people who have described their hatred for their gay feelings almost exactly as you have and then with help, support and therapy they have worked through it and become happier with themselves.
Being gay can be very isolating and it can make it seem like you are the only person in the world who feels like you do, but that doesn't mean you are.

 

There are definitely parts of the community that bother me. How we're all branded by one political/social brush, and if you don't conform to certain beliefs you can be ostracized from the community bothers me greatly. Try being a gay Republican and see how things go for you. As far as every gay guy wanting you to conform to a certain look or actions, you must know a lot of sucky gay guys. Seriously. I know a fair number of gay people, and the ones I choose to associate with don't do this. There those that do, certainly, and those are people I don't befriend.

////People don't respect your decisions and want to make you do things.////
What do you mean by this?

As far as your strength thing. I'm going to call BS. I understand what you're saying about defying physical odds as being a sort of "strong," but it also takes strength of character to stand up and say "this is who I am." Especially when just for being who you are has a lot of ill effects the world over. Trying being out and proud in Saudi Arabia or Russia. Canada is a million times better, and even here depending on where you live and who your family/friends are, telling people that you're LGBT can literally ruin your life. In the US, where it says you live, you can be fired in a lot states if your employer doesn't like the fact that you're gay. Not because of your performance, but literally because of SOMETHING YOU CAN'T CHANGE.

////A fight to just be ALLOWED to live like the rest of the world.////
Exactly. And it's sad that we still have to fight it. In Canada, the fight is a much smaller one than the daunting fight elsewhere around the world. It's sad that something like 2-7% of the world's population has to live in fear just to love who they want to love. THAT is pathetic. The struggles people make to come out are not pathetic. Move to India and tell me a gay man wanting to come out but being faced with the threat of being cut off from his friends and family is pathetic.

 

Why don't you want to be gay? Are you religious? Are you out and people are hateful towards you? Are people around you homophobic?

No you can't change your sexual orientation. Just like you can't change your eye color or skin color. People used to hate lefties. Times sure have changed.

 

people lived with cancer and survived. if you view it as a cancer, then it's something within yourself that you might not understand. it's important to sit back and re-evaluate everything you've come to learn on how the world works. self loathing is not going to help the situation that you're in. the more you fight against it, the more it'll affect your conscious in ways that you may not even notice. you don't really have to define yourself based on the stereotypes you hear or even the way the community wants you to be. people do understand what you're going through in one form of way or the other, and that's what part of this website is about.

 

If you really think we have no idea what you are going through then why don't you explain it? What is it that makes your situation so unique no one else will have ever had a similar experience or faced similar problems? Most of us have had to deal with self-loathing over being gay or a desire to fit in with the hetero mould- so why do you think those experiences are not similar to your own?

You haven't explained why you think being gay is wrong. From your post its sounds like the main problem is that it makes life difficult - but life is difficult regardless of your sexuality and while being gay may present additional difficulties (which are caused by other people and the heteronormative standards and mindset of society) being straight is not going to magically make your life better or problem free, it's going to give you a different set of problems. You said the idea of two men is wrong to you - why do you think that? Just stating that it seems wrong to you does not explain anything, it is just an expression of how you feel about it but you haven't been clear about why you think it is wrong. Why does it disgust you?

"But no I don't view standing up for "who you are" (a nebulous concept at best) as strength" - that's fine but others view it as a strength and from experience I can say that being who I am and asserting myself gives me a great deal of strength in emotional and psychological terms. Why do you reject any standard of strength that isn't based on physical attributes because that seems to be a very narrow definition of strength? Genetics and illness can play a huge role on whether those feats of strength are possible but it doesn't say anything about whether someone is a good or bad person, kind or cruel, considerate or selfish.

More importantly than all that though is the fact that you haven't said why you are here. If you are going to reject everything everyone says to you and are just going to repeat how much being gay disgusts you then I'm not sure what value you see in being here. You don't seem to want to move towards an acceptance of being gay and that is really all the help we can give you. No one here is going to say you should repress being gay or that you should view in such a bad light - people will only encourage you accept it. If you don't want that what are you doing on this site? What is your objective in coming online if you don't want to accept being gay? You can't change being gay so way are you sot set on fighting it, why are you so set on being consumed by bitterness and self-loathing, why are you so set on the idea that being gay is not for you? Why are you on a site that tries to support people in coming to terms with being gay and to resolving problems with others if you don't want to accept that you are gay. What advice are you looking for?

 

So basically, your objection to being gay is the same problem that exists in all human relationships - not fitting in, being ostracized - all these things happen to straight people as well. Every human relationship is fraught with these issues. You mention how do you know if someone is gay - well assuming you don't go to gay specific places then you don't But that is not really any different to asking someone out and finding out they aren't interested for other reasons. The risk of rejection is a problem you face regardless. However, there are gay specific ways of dating so you can eliminate that problem to a substantial degree.

You are assuming evolution and human life generally has a point - all evolution does is define the process by which selection pressures result in the continuation of a species. There's not point beyond existence. However, even accepting your view that evolution is aimed at perpetuating a species - there have been discussions amongst evolutionary biologists that homosexuality (which occurs in many species) is a means of regulating the population - the suggestion is that particularly fertile individuals will produce homosexual offspring to curb population growth (obviously without any intention behind it - it is simply a regulatory mechanism). So there are arguments that homosexuality does serve to perpetuate a species. Moreover, evolution is a descriptive theory about how species exist and evolve - you can't really draw any normative claims from it. The fact that human have, in evolutionary terms, reproduced by sexual reproduction does not validate that as a better or best means of reproduction. It is simply how mammals have evolved through the process of mutation and survival.

I can think of many reasons as to why homosexuality is right for people who are homosexual. That may seem like a tautology but it isn't - I was not saying my previous posts that homosexuality is better for everyone but for people who are homosexual it is a better way to live than pretending to be straight and commit to a relationship based upon a falsehood and denial of the self. There are also the social factors of helping to maintain social cohesion by allowing individuals to live their lives according to what they conceive of as the best life for them. There are also the philosophical and political arguments that humans should be free from unnecessary intrusion and interference - traditionally, the family has been an area deemed outside of the remit of governments, this has changed but so has the concept of the 'family'. Additionally, there is the idea that people cannot decide for other people what the best life is but it is something that each individual has to decide.

Applying this to your situation (as you have described it) I would agree that being ostracized by the gay people you have mixed with is unfair just because you don't fit in with their idea of what being gay means. But that applies to any community and I would suggest that you might want to find other gay people to spend time with who are less judgemental. Moreover, if you really don't want to act on being gay then don't - we are just saying that that is highly unlikely to make you any happier than you are now, especially over the duration of your entire life.

I also have to disagree that being straight makes life a lot easier - they don't face the prejudice true but they also have to deal with socially imposed standards, not to mention the issues people have with families, relationships, jobs, money, home building etc. However, straight people do face less prejudice so in that sense it is easier but the rights of gay have been strengthened a great deal in our respective countries and so life has gotten easier for us. Obviously, it can depend on where you and the attitudes of family can be especially problematic. If you face a particularly high degree of prejudice the source of that problem is partly other people as well as the standards that have been inculcated in us as children.

"People say to accept it and not cure it. But I ask why." - as has been said you cannot cure it, it isn't a question of why not cure it, it is a factual point that you cannot change being gay. Even therapies designed to turn people straight have accepted that is cannot be changed. Why should you accept being gay? Because you have no choice about being gay and because it cannot be cured - if you are gay then you are very unlikely to find a fulfilling romantic, sexual and emotional relationship with a woman.

"Because I want to see what reason there is to accept this but so far I haven't seen much that people haven't heard before."

If you've heard this all before why did you expect to hear something different here?

 

I'm not sure what the alternative is that you are espousing. I quite enjoy being gay. It has brought me some difficulties but far more joy. That doesn't mean that it will do the same for you. Given the mindset you've displayed here it would surprise me if it did. If you really think you can be straight, have at it. If you don't and you just want to be miserable that's an option too. If it makes you feel better to think everyone else is as miserable as you, no matter how resolutely they claim the contrary, well I guess that's an option too. It's not what I would do, but I'm not you...

 

I think we've all felt that way at some point. I still do at times, because life as a straight guy solves a hell of a lot of problems I never asked for as a gay guy. Changing sexual orientation is virtually impossible and can be psychologically very harmful with no result. I've heard of some gay guys who claim to have no more urges towards the same sex but I'd still caution towards acceptance. Yeah it sucks, life would be easier for most of us if we were straight for many reasons. It's something you have to accept and you can only accept yourself for who you are once you stop wanting to change.

 

"Ultimately though your reasons for accepting being gay is just personal opinion, nothing logical. Even your last statement in that each must decide what is best for them makes your previous points moot."

Actually I gave you some objective reasons why the acceptance of homosexuality is a good thing, primarily because it is a part of the personal sphere of freedom within which individuals can then make decisions about their own lives. So while there is a subjective element, it takes place within a setting of certain objective facts about human existence. Whether you as an individual can accept being gay does not change the fact that a society which supports gay rights and, of course, other minority rights is better than one which doesn't because it allows individuals to find their own way in life. Additionally, there is the objective fact that you are gay (you have no choice about it) which cannot be changed so why would you oppose it when it constitutes part of who you are. From an objective point of view you would be better off working towards accepting yourself are gay rather than trying to change what cannot be changed.

If you treat every reason as mere opinion then why are you bothering to speak to us? If you aren't going to consider reasons as 'reasons' independently of whoever happens to state them then you why do you listen to anything anyone says?

"If I tried to show myself, people will flee (a fact). That whole "be yourself" rhetoric is just bullshit in practice."

Why would people flee - if you have been pretending to behave in a certain way to fit in, it is not surprising that you haven't found people who accept you as you. Once people find out you have been pretending how can they trust you. Why not be yourself from the start? If you haven't tried being yourself how do you know it's bullshit? Why do you find the idea of being yourself so difficult? I'm not stereotypically gay but I wouldn't behave in a stereotypical manner because that isn't me - and if other people in the gay community don't like that, then tough, I don't care. Why do you care so much about being accepted by people you clearly despise?

 

At this point, I don't think there is much that anybody can say to convince you to accept yourself for who you are, since it's an aspect of your life you dislike a lot. And honestly, nobody has the right to change your mind since it is such a personal part of your life and something that you have to battle within yourself to accept or deny.

Only thing that I feel I can do is share my experiences and why I decided to accept me for who I am instead of denying it and repressing my feelings. I wouldn't wish the struggles of denial on anybody because it takes its toll on you mentally and physically. I remember all throughout my teenage years up to my college years, I would pray constantly for my feelings towards guys to just disappear so that I can be "normal" again. I just didn't want to be that way, but I always found myself still attracted to guys no matter what I told myself. Every time someone asked me if I had a girlfriend yet or why I didn't have a girlfriend, my heart would just sink and I feel physically drained with anxiety because I know the truth about my orientation, but would tell them that I was just not interested right now or was too busy with school. It took me a very long time battling this internal battle with myself. In fact, I said to myself that I will forever repress my attraction for guys, so that I can live "normally." But I told myself later on at 24, what is "normal" for someone else may not be what's normal for me, and honestly I don't need their acceptance if they disagree. I could never see myself ever being in a relationship with a girl, and even if I forced myself to be in one with a girl, that would not be fair for her. She deserves someone that genuinely loves her not only as a best friend but also intimately. I could also decide to live a celibate lifestyle forever so people wouldn't know that I was gay, but that was something I personally don't think I can handle. I guess I'm just a weak human that craves affection. I finally accepted this one aspect of my life at 24 as something that I can't change no matter how I tried to spin it. I didn't care about what other people thought of me anymore and didn't want anybody to mold me in their light. I am who I am, and I was fine if they didn't accept it, as long as I had self acceptance.

I guess you can either call me "strong" for finally accepting myself as gay, or "weak" for not having the ability to repress my attraction for guys, but that's just who I am and I don't feel I can change it. You definitely have the option of not accepting your orientation, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. I just worry of the mental and physical implications of the constant denial. It was very draining for me when I went through it, and it's something that I don't wish upon anybody. Whatever you decide, I hope you can find peace with it.

Kind regards (*hug*)

 

"Because no one has accepted me before. I know what I'm talking about when I said I have been myself before and people distance themselves from me. You get looks and any conversation you start has people looking for the door."

Do you mind providing some specific examples? No one gets on with everyone they meet but from what you say it sounds like you think you are entirely to blame - any relationship is a two-way thing and so you cannot be the sole determiner of whether you will get on with someone. If you are ok to give us some examples then we can talk about it if you like. I think, and this is speculative, the problem is maybe finding people who are similar to you or finding people who are less judgemental.