1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Allosexual vs asexual

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by artstravel, Nov 11, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    16,551
    Likes Received:
    4,750
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Why, thank you for your kind, considered, meaningful response. I note that when people do not actually have anything meaningful to offer in response to discussions rooted in science, they often revert to personal insults. This might make you believe you're accomplishing something, but in reality, it simply furthers the argument by providing no meaningful counter-argument.

    I suggest you keep that in mind next time you have a physical or mental health emergency. Since you don't believe in the field of science, perhaps you'll have better luck being treated by someone who graduated from Facebook University with a degree in Youtube Research Methods the next time your loved one has a severe mental or physical health ailment.

    While professionals aren't all knowing, they certainly do spend their lives studying and seeking to understand humankind and human behavior. And given that they have been doing so for 100+ years, they've developed some pretty sophisticated ways of evaluating and understanding people... and ways to control for things like bias, belief, cultural encapsulation, placebo, and so forth that often get in the way of understanding things and creating theories that can actually be tested and reproduced.

    I don't think anyone has suggested that unrecognized sexual orientations are ' a phase'. More accurately, whatever the unrecognized orientation is most likely fits into one of the more recognized categories, or is a behavior rather than a hardwired orientation.

    For example, demisexuality is another unrecognized term that is, honestly, simply a description of a behavioral pattern, not a sexual orientation. If it were actually a sexual orientation, it would apply to perhaps the majority of people, because most people don't truly love someone until they get to know them. They might be infatuated, have a crush, or otherwise feel something, but the artificial distinction simply does not appear to exist in a measurable way, at least, not based on 80 years of study... and if it did exist, it would not suddenly appear out of nowhere. So really, this simply describes a common experience to, likely. the majority of people who experience sexual attraction. That doesn't invalidate it, it simply accurately places it in context. And if it's a label you find is effective for you, nobody's saying you can't use it.

    Again, the purpose of these sorts of discussions isn't to make anyone wrong or invalidate anyone. Where there's a fine line is when we are seeking to educate others who are seeking to understand themselves. From that perspective, we need to ensure that what we are conveying is accurate and grounded in reliable and reproducible science. So I can, quite reasonably, describe myself as unicornsexual, but it isn't reasonable or helpful to suggest to anyone else that they might be unicornsexual, because that isn't a sexual orientation that has been validated by study.
     
    #21 Chip, Dec 25, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2021
  2. Sadness

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2020
    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    72
    Location:
    United States
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    Sorry but in no way i meant to offend you and i never implied that what you're going through is a phase.

    What i just pointed out is, even though sexuality can be really complicated sometimes, they are all based off studies, psychologist studies sexuality for a while in the same way medicine studies mental health issues, this is why i wrote about people identifying them with something that it's not proven by mental health studies.

    Sexuality can be applied here in the same way.

    Again you can identyfy yourself the way you want and nobody can disagree with you and thats okay.

    But the fact is that they are not proven to exist by studies, so they are like hocd, is a term thatpeople identify but it doesnt actually exist.

    Does this matter at the end of the day? No, because they will still have ocd and classify with hocd, the same with you, at the end of they you're still what you want it to be
     
  3. Unsure77

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    410
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    And for what it’s worth, Chip’s not wrong about people sometimes mis-identifying as asexual. I’m gay, but had grown up in a super conservative religious background (and have an anxiety disorder), so I basically dissociated my attraction to women away and convinced myself I was asexual for a few decades. And for me, I feel like those are years of my life wasted. It’s going to be much harder to find a partner now because I’m so old. It’s not exactly what he’s describing, but it’s a one-off and the end result is the same. Your experience is valid, but so is mine and I think Chip is trying to help people avoid my mistake. Not to tell you you’re not who you are.
     
    Rayland and Chip like this.
  4. Aera25

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2021
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    India
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    All I'm going to say is maybe a few people are like that,most of the people on the ace spectrum aren't

    If you don't want me to be rude,then maybe you should at least try and see a viewpoint beyond yours and that of 'professionals'. It's not like your experiences are the only truth either.
     
  5. Aera25

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2021
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    India
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    And are 'studies' supposed to be infallible?
     
  6. Aera25

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2021
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    India
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    I do believe in science. With a healthy skepticism in some of the things it says.

    The point is you are still being invalidating,you're still being extremely insensitive,you're taking everything that science says as the gospel truth whereas people's experiences have shown otherwise.

    I think they do count for something. I do believe people when they say they don't experience attraction,when they only experience attraction with a bond because I myself have gone through it. I have seen the differences between allosexual and asexual people myself because while I was in love with someone,I was attracted to him and now that I'm not,I feel no attraction to him.

    You might not have. But the truth is while people do need to know someone for attraction,one night stands are a thing.

    Knowing someone for fifteen minutes and wanting to jump into bed with them immediately is quite different from having to know someone for years together before that spark of attraction.

    So yes,you are still an ass. You think it's okay to belittle someone because you simply can't comprehend people being different from you and you think it's okay to use 'science' to contribute to erasure.

    You and everyone who agrees with you disgust me. Maybe if you spent less time on those Oh so fantastic scientific studies and more time listening to people's lived experiences you might,I say might because talking to you is like talking to brick wall, just understand where we're coming from.

    I have no interest in continuing this discussion further. Goodbye.
     
  7. chicodeoro

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2020
    Messages:
    849
    Likes Received:
    946
    Location:
    London
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    All but family
    No, but people who have studied and worked for many years in a particular area of medicine or psychology probably know more about this subject than you.

    (And me, and most of us for that matter.)
     
    Unsure77 and Rayland like this.
  8. Rayland

    Moderator Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2021
    Messages:
    2,111
    Likes Received:
    1,584
    Location:
    Estonia
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    It's also important to aknowledge the experience of other people and not invalidate them. You are still missing the point of this all.

    It's important to realize that if you suddenly feel absense of sexual attraction to others, then it don't nessesarily mean that you are asexual. There could be also many other factors there. There could be medication side effects, health issues, stress, problems with relationships, body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria, hormonal changes, trauma and so on.

    You also don't see into the mind of the people who define themselves as asexuals. If you define as an asexual, while in reality you have some serious health issue instead, then it may end very badly, if you don't treat it. Of course I'm not know it all person either, but I know at least how much health problems and body image can affect you, withouth you realizing it.

    Again we are not invalidating asexual people. It's important to think about all of the aspects, before you decide how you feel about this and make sure you have no serious health issues instead.
     
  9. Aera25

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2021
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    India
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    Says the person saying that asexual people must have some sort of illness that made them this way,instead of just accepting that someone might really be ace?

    I thought this was supposed to be a safe space for people who aren't cishet. Guess I was wrong.
     
  10. Aera25

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2021
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    India
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    I'm a god damn psychology student and you are dead wrong to assume that these studies are right and encompass everyone.

    There are other signs and symptoms which have to have lasted at least a period of six months to qualify for a specific diagnosis.

    I simply don't get it,you expect people to tale at face value your sexual and gender orientation but when someone says that they're asexual,all of a sudden,It's because they're mentally or physically ill?
     
  11. Sadness

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2020
    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    72
    Location:
    United States
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    Sorry if it sounds rude but if you are a psychologist student you should know more than us that this terms do not exist.

    And plus, they never said that when somene claim to be assexual is because they are mentally ill.

    But more so that there are a ton of mental problems that culminate in emotional problems... low self steem, anxiety, depression, medicine. All this decrease level of emotions. So what they are doing is not invalidating someones sexuality but just excluding possibilities of mental health issues.

    If after the exclusion of all mental health issues you still dont feel attracted to anyone, than yes, you are assexual, they are just trying to give you another point of view thats all whats happening...
     
    Rayland likes this.
  12. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    16,551
    Likes Received:
    4,750
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Please provide a credible, peer-reviewed citation that supports your claim. I'm open to the possibility there are some, but I've not seen any (outside of a couple that had terrible methodology), and I've actually seen the opposite.

    What matters is what the science, the credible professionals working in the field, and the researchers say. As someone who is a self-identified "god damned psychology student", you should be the first to realize the influence that cultural encapsulation and bias can play in interpretation or rejection of credible scientific information.

    As many people in this thread have said, there's nothing wrong with having a different perspective if that works for you individually. However, EC and its parent nonprofit ECCS are focused on evidence-based practices, and that means accurately conveying the current thinking of professionals, researchers, and others in the field. Without using credible science and research as the basis for the information we share, we would quickly fall into the trap of the folks who believe the garbage that's coming out of the q-anon and anti-vax folks.
     
    #32 Chip, Dec 30, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2021
    Rayland likes this.
  13. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    16,551
    Likes Received:
    4,750
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    It is a correct statement, according to published research, that a majority of people who self-identify as asexual also self-identify as having co-occurring anxiety, depression, or other mental health disorders.

    However, no one in this thread has ever suggested that all asexual people have a co-occurring mental health disorder.

    What is being suggested is that for individuals who think they might be asexual to first explore, preferably with a licensed mental health professional, whether they might indeed have a co-occurring MH disorder that could be influencing their ability to experience sexual attraction. Since this is such a common thing (Most people with severe anxiety and/or depression do not have much of an interest in sex, but most also do not identify as asexual), what I am honestly trying to understand is why you seem to have such a strong aversion to the suggestion that folks who don't have sexual drive or desire explore whether there might be a co-occurring condition that's causing or contributing to that.

    If they do, they can get the help they need and deserve, and they won't, as many here have reported, feel frustrated and resentful that they spent years believing something that was actually a side effect of a mental health disorder.

    If their lack of sexual interest is not influenced by a mental health disorder, then no harm, no foul, and they can be content in who they are.

    Especially as a "god damned psychology student", you should recognize the value of peer-reviewed literature in the psychological sciences, and understand the nature of co-occurring psychological disorders. Perhaps you have not yet gotten to differential diagnosis and the nuance involved in understanding the very individual nature of co-occurring mental health conditions, and the (new to DSM-5) scaled scoring of the various mood disorders.

    Additionally, as I would assume you would know if you have studied research methods, scientific studies are a pretty accurate representation of the general population *if* the methodology used in the study is robust and does a good job of working with representative and non-biased samples. One of the biggest problems with much of the unreplicated research out there that makes claims about sexuality is that the methodology is absolutely horrible, often with a combination of experimenter bias, sampling bias, poor methodology, and/or poor construct validity. And that's one of the reasons it's pretty crucial to be able to look at data with a critical, skeptical eye to determine whether the results are trustworthy.

    EC has on its team two doctoral-level social workers who are researchers (one is also an experienced clinician), and several others on the team who have advanced education, clinical work and/or study in the field. This isn't something folks are pulling out of their ass. Furthermore, nobody is against you here. We're really on the same side. All we are seeking to do is to get accurate information out to the most vulnerable people who may not have any social network of people to rely on. And that's why it's so important that we walk a careful line between validating people's individual experience but relying on the best credible thought for the information we share with people seeking to understand themselves.
     
    Rayland, PatrickUK and Unsure77 like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.