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Hi, I'm glad to be here!

Discussion in 'The Welcome Lounge' started by femgineer, Nov 11, 2020.

  1. femgineer

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    Hello! I just wanted to introduce myself. I am very, very new to posting things online, and I don't love the idea of revealing even mundane aspects of myself over the internet. However, considering where I live and how I was brought up, this seems like the best place to find good discussion and maybe answers on the ideas of sexuality and relationships. I am in my early twenties and have begun wrestling with the idea of attraction, and if/how it should be controlled. I am a female Christian and grew up in a fairly conservative church, but have begun to suspect that I am attracted to females (at least in addition to males). I am not quite sure how to proceed, but have become disenchanted with how heavily straight relationships are pushed on the conservative young people that I know (at least in my experience), when it seems that one's relationship with Jesus should come first. (If you are not a Christian I respect that, but this is what I believe). I am often told that someday I'll get a husband, but what if I don't want one? Does that make me any less legitimate or worthy as a person? On a lighter note, I love, love, love reading and kickboxing and running and look forward to getting to know the people on this site.
     
  2. Lucy Marie

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    There are few things that make me madder than what has happened to you!!! I am a Christian as well and will happily discuss that with you. I want to make it clear that Jesus did NOT say only love those who are like you. No, Jesus was pretty specific “Love one another as I have loved you”. I see no wiggle room there—Jesus meant just that. Also, it is possible to separate religion and faith. Religion is man made—faith is God given.
    I hope if nothing else you can find your way back to Him (but that is not my business unless you choose it to be.) Again, we can discuss more privately.
    So, I’m with you on reading (we should start book club here at EC), but ya lost me on kickboxing. I am amazed at how some people can just propel their bodies. Good on you.
    I am here in a supporting role. I am going to trademark this phrase..I am a mama bear and cheerleader. If you need to speak of problems on your journey—I cannot give advice from experience. However, I am always open to listen and give ((momhugs)). Seriously, if you want to chat I am more than happy to do so.
    ((momhugs))

    ps your short bio made me think of Lara Croft :slight_smile:
     
  3. femgineer

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    Hi Lucy Marie! Comparing me to Lara Croft is one of the nicest things that anyone has said about me- thank you very much! :grin: I also appreciate your willingness to discuss Christianity- that would be wonderful thank you! I do still consider myself a Christian, but it has just been hard to read my Bible recently and this may sound crazy but I'm beginning to learn Ancient Greek so that I can read the New Testmant in its original form and find out once and for all what is really said about homosexuality. How did you come to your conclusions? (Am I able to contact you privately or do I need to become a full member first?) Also- a book club sounds fantastic! What have you been reading recently? I have been trying to finish Anna Karenina but it's been a doozy keeping all of the characters straight.:joy:
     
  4. Lucy Marie

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    Ummmm, this is where my son starts pulling his hair out (my lack of tech drives him nuts—I don’t know how to text as an example) I have no idea. I know this thread is for welcoming not in depth Bible review.
    I am pretty new here myself so I am still learning the ropes. But I know talk of faith, God, etc can be a trigger for some—and it is not fair to them to bring it up in this thread.
    I am a pebble in a shoe (irritant but can live with it) for someone who does know, let me ask them. Since they may not stop by for a bit please don’t get discouraged—I will be here to talk with you, okay. It just might take sometime.
    ((momhugs))
     
  5. quebec

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    femgineer.....Hello and a very big welcome to Empty Closets! Ah yes....the religious guilt trip...I know it well! Before I start sounding too anti-religion I should tell you that I am a Christian and I have kept my faith as well as being gay. That sounds like a contradiction, but it can happen. It sounds to me like you haven't yet been able to shake off the indoctrination that said that being LGBTQ was a terrible sin, that taught that we are broken and must be fixed. Even when I accepted that I was and always had been gay, I still had a serious conflict between my faith and what I knew to be absolute truth...that I was gay. It so happens that my faith was a choice of my own...I was not raised to go to church and all that entails. So turning my back on/reconciling what I believed was not going to be easy. I spent a little over a year in a very serious study of what the Bible...not church dogma, not church leaders...says about homosexuality. I read a number of books and studied the significant passages in the Bible in the original Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek. What I found set me free and also angered me. It seems that a number of passages in the Bible have been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and sometimes even twisted to justify a predetermined, prejudiced point of view. A view that supports the belief that any non-heterosexual relationship is evil, sinful, and immoral. At best this is unforgivingly poor scholarship. At worst this is an outright lie. I can tell you that nowhere does the Bible condemn same-sex relationships as we know them...why? Simply because same-sex relationships as we know them did not even exist at the time the Old and New Testament were written. If you would like more detailed information about this I can provide it for you...just let me know.

    So my point here is that the guilt and shame that caused so much self-hate in my life has no foundation at all. I was told that every LGBTQ individual had made a choice to be that way because they were filled with lust. I was told that all of us were going to hell. IT.IS.A.LIE. I am made in the image of God. God made me the way I am and, as I believe, God does not make mistakes!! I am as I was meant to be and never, ever need to be ashamed of who I am. Learning that what I had been told for so long was completely false, made me very angry for a while...but understanding that there was no justification at all for me to feel that guilt set me free. Now that I know there is no reason at all to feel that guilt, I am completely free of it...it's gone! :old_smile:

    Just as an interesting side note...the word "homosexual" was not invented until 1896 and was not even used in the Bible until 1946.

    I hope that you can be who you truly are without any kind of hesitation...we don't need to be fixed because WE.ARE.NOT.BROKEN!

    I have a lot of information about homosexuality and the Bible. If you would like more I can easily give it to you...just ask. For example: It's easy to prove that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah had absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. The Bible itself proves it!

    .....David :gay_pride_flag:
     
  6. femgineer

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    Thanks so much for your reply David! I would absolutely love as much info about homosexuality and the Bible as you'd be willing to give. Also, how did you go about your study of the original texts? This is something that I would very much like to do- thanks!
     
  7. femgineer

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    Thanks Lucy Marie! That makes perfect sense- and your support is much appreciated. :slight_smile:
     
  8. Lucy Marie

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    Quebec, I too would enjoy discussing this with you. I am impressed just from the bit you wrote. Let me know if chatting with me is something you would like to do.
    ((momhugs))
     
  9. quebec

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    femgineer & Lucy Marie.....OK...here we go, remember...you asked! :old_smile: I may have to break this message into more than one part.
    .....1) You don't need to speak ancient Greek or Hebrew to be able to study the Old and New Testament in the original languages. There are dictionaries and lexicons that will help you with your study. Those reference materials helped me study the passages in the Bible that are traditionally used to condemn the LGBTQ+ Family. It's not easy and it's definitely not fast, but you can go through those passages word by word to pick out the original meaning.
    .....2) It's also critical that ANY passage in the Bible be read in the light of the society that existed when they were written. An excellent example of this are the passages that Paul wrote in the New Testament. I've often said that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality as we know it since H. as we know it did not exist when the Old/New Testament were written. The ancient Greek and Roman worlds looked at relationships far differently than we do today. Pederasty was the widespread Greek practice of sexual relationships between adult men and adolescent boys. This custom, attested throughout Archaic and Classical Greece, seems to have become widespread by the eighth century BCE. It probably had its origins in the almost exclusively male nature of public life and served a social function as a means of formalizing ties between different age groups in the citizen body. Some authors (especially Plato and Xenophon) idealized relationships between men and boys as a form of tutelage with no necessary physical component. So far as we can tell, however, these relationships usually were sexual.

    Example: Zeus and his cupbearer/adolescent lover Ganymede:

    Relations between the adult male lover (erastes) and the adolescent loved one (eromenos) were regulated by a strict social code. A man began to court the boy of his choice (who was supposed to be from a good family) when the boy was just entering puberty - ancient authors rhapsodize about the first stubble on adolescent cheeks.

    The process of courtship was (supposed to be) quite formal: a man was to bring valuable gifts to the boy; and the boy was to show himself demurely reluctant to accept those gifts or initiate a relationship. Once relations began, the man would continue to give the boy presents - but never money, since that would imply prostitution. The whole process was - in theory - consensual: any man who forced himself on a youth could be prosecuted for rape. The man and his adolescent lover socialized publicly, especially in the wine-soaked atmosphere of the symposium. Even during symposia, however, it was deemed critical that they maintain the proper postures of erastes (lover) and eromenos (loved one). The man, as the active lover, could show affection to the boy; but the boy, as the passive object of affection, was not to display physical attraction to the man. This pose reflects the power asymmetries built into pederasty: the man, as the mature partner, had to show himself dominant at all times, while the boy, as the junior partner, was thought to submit to the man from a combination of respect and non-romantic love (philia). The Greeks were less concerned with the gender of sexual partners than with sexual roles. To penetrate was to assume the active, socially respectable role; to be penetrated was to be passive, unmanly, and degraded. Thus the “proper” form of sexual contact between man and adolescent was intercrural (between the legs) - that way, the man could assume the active, penetrating role, while the boy was not actually being penetrated. It was thought extremely improper for relationships between a man and his lover to continue once the lover was fully mature (i.e., when he could grow a full beard). At that point, even intercrural sex would degrade both partners.

    Reading the passages in the New Testament from the viewpoint of today's society is just wrong. Doing that inserts a meaning into the passages that they simply did not mean when written. Those passages where condemning ritual sex as a part of pagan idol worship. They were not speaking to loving, committed same-sex relationships that we see in the LGBTQ+ Community today.
    .....3) Most of us have heard the Biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Two cites so filled with evil that God destroyed them with only Lot and his family escaping. We are told that the sin of Sodom was that the men of the city wanted to have homosexual relations with the two men (angels) that God sent to warn Lot to leave. We even have the word "Sodomy" in our dictionaries which means sex between two men. I said that these passages have been twisted...well here we go...let's look at Ezekiel 16:49-50

    49 "Behold this was the iniquity (sin) of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread and abundance of idleness was in her and her daughters (Gomorrah & other cities), neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy"
    50 "And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good"

    As you can see it had absolutely NOTHING to do with homosexuality...not even mentioned. Just in case someone tries to say that the "abomination" means gay sex...it doesn't. The Hebrew words "towbah or toebah" are what have been translated as "abomination". Those words refer to idol worship, which was rampant in Sodom and Gomorrah. So it becomes obvious that people who tell us that S & G were destroyed because of H. either do not know the truth or are twisting, even changing the meaning of the story to fit their preconceived agenda. I kinda don't like saying things that bluntly...it sort of sounds like a "conspiracy nut”! But I see no other options. This was the first of the "Six Clobber Passages" that I found out about. I was actually angry for a while that I had been told a lie for so long...and I was irritated with myself for taking so long to figure it out on my own.

    Okay....enough for one post, If any of this raises questions...just let me know and we can continue this conversation! :old_big_grin:
    .....David :gay_pride_flag:
     
    #9 quebec, Nov 12, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2020
  10. Lucy Marie

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    Oh, this is going to be fun. I would very, very much like to continue discussion. Your answer was amazing and I need to break it down and reply. I hope you both are excited as well.
    ((momhugs))
     
  11. Lucy Marie

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    “Christian lesbians??”

    That is a thread in chit chat. I think combining the two would allow for more discussion. Sadly, I am not clear on how to merge the two. Copy and paste?


    I posted this information in both places so hopefully someone can do that.


    Even if they never merge I will respond to above by quebec. Also, not sure why the letters are so big and dark.


    ((momhugs))
     
  12. quebec

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    @Lucy Marie.....It's getting late here, so I will wait until tomorrow to post again and continue the discussion.
    .....David :gay_pride_flag:
     
  13. femgineer

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    Thanks for this David! It's really gotten me thinking- and like Lucy Marie I look forward to your next post when you have time! :slight_smile:
     
  14. quebec

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    Femgineer & Lucy Marie.....Sorry, this has taken longer than expected. I had both my wife and my mother-in-law get quite ill and have been helping them for the last couple of days. I was going to put together a detailed reply, but again since I've been otherwise occupied I'm going to send you a post made by @PatrickUK, who is a staff member here on EC. He makes many outstanding posts. This particular post is a featured message that he posted last month (I think) anyway, it says the same things that I would say...so here goes...with many thanks to @PatrickUK!


    Thank you to the members who have contributed so far. THANK YOU for bravely sharing your experiences in this thread.

    Let's be clear that conversion therapy is a load of crap. It's not "therapy" and it doesn't work, ever. You don't even have to take my word for it because the former leader of one of the biggest providers of conversion therapy in North America during the 80's and 90's renounced conversion therapy and talked about the harm it did after dissolving his organisation.

    What follows is a long read and may only be of interest to people of the Christian faith who want to know more about the problem passages in the Bible that are weaponised against the LGBT community, but some of the passages from the OT cross over into Islam too:

    THE BIBLE AND HOMOSEXUALITY

    The Lesbian and Gay community often faces discrimination because of societal attitudes. Unfortunately, these attitudes are often taught by churches and sadly the Bible is frequently used as a weapon to ‘bash’ people. It is important to remember that such hurtful things are not a reflection of Jesus Christ, or the way God wants the church to be, or even what the Bible really says.

    Only a small number of passages in the entire Bible reference same-sex sexual activity (six passages out of sixty-six books of the entire Bible). Obviously this topic was not of great concern to the biblical writers. Yet these verses have been used to justify hatred, condemnation and exclusion of God’s lesbian, gay and trans children.

    The word ‘homosexuality’ is a modern term and did not exist during biblical times. Biblical writers had no concept of sexual orientation or sexual development as we understand these today. Therefore, passages that reference same-sex sexual activity should not be seen as comprehensive statements concerning homosexuality, but instead should be viewed in the context of what the ancient world that produced the Bible understood about sexual activity.

    Sexuality in the Mediterranean World

    Biblical scholars have employed the social sciences to study the relational and gender patterns of the ancient Mediterranean world—the world that produced the Bible. Professor Mary Tolbert summarizes that research with the following words:

    The single most important concept that defines sexuality in the ancient Mediterranean world, whether we are talking about the kingdoms of Egypt or of Assyria or whether we are talking about the later kingdoms of Greece and Rome, is that approved sexual acts never occurred between social equals. Sexuality, by definition, in ancient Mediterranean societies required the combination of dominance and submission. This crucial social and political root metaphor of dominance and submission as the definition of sexuality rested upon a physical basis that assumed every sex act required a penetrator and someone who was penetrated. Needless to say, this definition of sexuality was entirely male—not surprising in the heavily patriarchal societies of the Mediterranean.

    In these societies sexual acts between men did happen, but they happened in order to show dominance of one group of men or a man over another, especially during times of war. It was not uncommon for men who had conquered a foreign army to rape them in order to show they were dominant and of a higher status.

    The Story of Sodom in Genesis 19

    This understanding is helpful when we read the story of the city of Sodom, Lot, and the visitors (or angels). The men of Sodom want to ‘know’ (yadah - a Hebrew word that can mean sexual intercourse) the foreigners who have come to Lot’s house. In essence they want to rape them in order to show their social and cultural dominance over them.

    This story is not a condemnation of homosexuality, but is a story about rape and inhospitality. In other biblical texts (Ezekiel 16:49, Luke 17:28-29) Sodom’s ‘sin’ is not identified as homosexuality, rather, their sins were pride, failure to help the poor, and lack of hospitality to foreigners.

    Leviticus

    “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.” (Leviticus 18:22)

    “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)

    These verses are part of the Holiness Code in the Old Testament book of Leviticus (chapters 17-26) that attempted to spell out ways the people of Israel would act differently than their Mediterranean neighbours. In light of the previously mentioned sexual practices of Israel’s neighbours, it becomes clear that this prohibition in Leviticus was an attempt to preserve the internal harmony of Jewish male society by not allowing them to participate in anal intercourse as a form of expressing or gaining social and political dominance. These verses in no way prohibit, nor do they even speak to, loving, caring sexual relationships between people of the same gender.

    The Writings of the Apostle Paul

    “So do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God”

    (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

    “The law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, fornicators, sodomites, slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God”

    (1 Timothy 1:9-11)

    There are two major issues to consider when one approaches these passages: translation and sexual practices of Greek culture. A comparison of these verses in several translations of the Bible indicates that there is some confusion about how to translate two Greek words in these lists of vices Paul has enumerated. The two words are arsenokoitai which is rendered in various translations as “homosexuals,” “sodomites,” “child molesters,” or “perverts” and malakoi which is rendered in various translations as “catamites,” “the effeminate,” or “boy prostitutes.”

    These Greek words are difficult to translate in the context of these passages. Malakoi is a common term and means “soft.” It can refer to clothing (Matthew 11:8) or moral matters, meaning “undisciplined.” Arsenokoitai is a rare word and is made up of arseno meaning “man,” and koitai meaning “bed, lying, or having sex with.” When put together the word may mean “male prostitutes.”

    When these words are placed in the context of Greek culture in which Paul was writing, the passages have very specific meanings. As we have seen earlier, the Mediterranean world had a definition of sexuality that was based on dominance/submission and unequal status. Greek culture fine tuned that definition with regard to status. Proper sexual relations occurred between people whose status was unequal. In addition there was a practice in ancient Greek culture known as pederasty in which younger men were socialized and educated through a close relationship with an older man. These older men were the boys’ (age 12 or 13) patrons and, often, their lovers. These relationships were seen as the key to raising up the next generation of city leaders and there were strict rules about how long the relationship should last and the roles of families within these relationships. Evidently there was some abuse happening in these relationships and young boys were being exploited and kept by the patron well after the boy had grown into adulthood (which would have made him an equal, hence violating the code of sex only among unequals).

    These abusive relationships are what the apostle Paul is referencing, not mutually loving and caring relationships between people of the same sex.

    Romans 1:26-27

    “For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.”

    By now it should be clear that these verses must be read in the cultural context of the Mediterranean world that understood socially acceptable sexual behaviour to happen only one way: among unequals with the dominant partner always an adult male.

    It is also important to read these verses in Romans within their larger context. At the beginning of his letter to the church in Rome (where he had not yet visited) Paul was attempting to lay out for the Roman church his theology of grace (all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; but are justified by the gift of grace in Christ Jesus, Romans chapter 3, verse 23). He is writing to a Jewish and Gentile audience. In chapter one he tries to demonstrate the Gentiles’ need for God by pointing out behaviours that keep them alienated from God. In chapter two he does the same thing for his Jewish audience.

    Paul’s reference to natural and unnatural sexual acts must be taken in light of Mediterranean sexuality. He is not attempting to give an ethical teaching concerning homosexuality. He is trying to meet his Gentile audience on their own terms; using the example of some people who are not upholding the dominant/submissive model as an opportunity to talk about all persons’ need for the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

    Issues of Biblical Authority

    When dealing with matters of biblical interpretation one always needs to keep in mind the role of the authority of the Bible in matters of faith and practice. While the Bible is an important witness to the relationship between God and humanity, it is not the ultimate revelation of God—Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, is. We must guard against what some scholars have called bibliolatry—making an idol out of scripture.

    One way to guard against bibliolatry is to realize that while the Bible may be at the centre of matters of faith, it must also be in ‘conversation’ with tradition, experience and reason. These four sources of faith have become known as the Wesleyan quadrilateral, so named after their originator John Wesley, founder of the Methodist heritage.

    We must read and interpret scripture with the aid of the history and tradition of the Christian church. We must also bring reason—philosophical and rational thought—to bear on applications of scripture to real life situations. And last and most importantly, scripture must be weighed alongside human experience—especially the experience of God’s grace.

    It is time we stopped making an idol out of the Bible. It is time we bring philosophical and rational thought — especially what the sciences have told us about sexual orientation and identity development — into conversation with the Bible. It is time we listen to the experiences of God’s gay and lesbian children who know with all their hearts that God has created them just as they are.

    #5PatrickUK, Sep 9, 2020
     
  15. Lucy Marie

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    ((momhugs)) I just noticed I did bold and loud higher up. OMGosh, how juvenile.
    Sorry.
    ((momhugs))
     
  16. Lucy Marie

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    1). ((momhugs)) for being there for your family’s health. This site is the last thing you should have to worry about. ((momhugs))

    2) I am almost intimidated by your response. You are quite clearly someone who has studied the true texts and not just relied on internet sites.

    3). Before I delve in deeper—let me say again: yes a lot of people deliberately skew God’s Word for their own prejudices; but not all do. Please, know more don’t. God said love is love and He was clear.

    4) onward...I had some tangent readings about ancients and their impact on today’s “sin” of homosexuality. My final take away was that times change and mores change.

    5). Also, the history of the world and rulers cannot be minimized either. Jesus, Himself, had difficulty with both the government body and Church. If He had difficulty then what hope did the rest of us have? Yes, He is in New Testament vs Old Testament—but some things never change. I have often felt that homosexuality was not the true issue, but control of the people was. There were different groups in charge (religious) and ruling. Just think about women being stoned by crowds for some infraction that did not have a homosexual element

    6) I find camps that “cure” homosexuality are an abomination. Throw me in a “camp” and treat me the way those “campers” are treated...and I would renounce anything I was told to. It makes me ill and I am so so sorry if anyone was treated this way in His name. I am sorry.

    7) The discussion about men raping to show dominance in some circumstances happens today. Those sinners have a judgement waiting for them. It is like rape in a lot of circumstances where it is not about sexual fulfillment, but power (as above). Why would anyone want to listen to them about anything?

    8) The point raised above about loving consensual relationships vs dominated victims is interesting at a minimum and I will have to think long about that. Thank you.

    9) Jesus spoke of how with His arrival that all the laws of OT did not relate to their time. Think about the laws He challenged—easy example, money changing hands in Temple. It was law, but man’s not His. Also, OT God was very much hell and punishment and NT because of Jesus God talked about the ways to have eternal life with Him.

    10). Yes. Yes. Yes. Context is all. Along with translation. Refer to camel through the eye of a needle. This refers to specific location NOT pushing humped animals through sewing devices. Every word in the Bible, including His must be looked at through the lens of 0AD and 2020 AD.

    11) How does Gaga put it? God makes no mistakes. He made us as He planned and just because someone in South Carolina (example) thumps their Bible does not make it right.

    Responses welcome :wink:
    ((momhugs))
     
  17. quebec

    Moderator Full Member

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    Lucy Marie.....Lots of good points! Here are some books that have helped me:

    Both of these look at Christianity from the view of a Younger Christian trying to reconcile their faith in the light of their sexuality:

    ......."God and the Gay Christian" by Matthew Vines
    ......."Torn" by Justin Lee
    By an older Christian minister:
    ......."Stranger at the Gate by Mel White"
    By a psychologist/psychiatrist working through his experiences as a gay man:
    ......."The Velvet Rage by Alan Downs"

    I think it would help If you read them in the above order.
    .....David :gay_pride_flag:
     
  18. QueerYogi

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    Hi femgineer, God is love I am proud of you for recognizing the bias in some Christian circles. I don't identify as Christian but I believe Jesus loves LGBTQIA folx and you don't have to go with the mainstream to be valid!
     
  19. PatrickUK

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    Those of you who are familiar with the supposedly 'tight friendship' between David and Jonathan in the Book of Samuel should take a moment to read 1 Samuel 20.41 from the old King James version. It says:

    And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded.

    Have any of you stopped to consider what that strange term (David exceeded) at the end of verse 41 actually means? If we go back into the Hebrew writing we learn that it means to 'become big or great or enlarged' and it doesn't take a genius to realise what that really amounts to. It doesn't mean David wept all the more as the later sanitised versions of the Bible prefer to suggest. The New Living Translation cannot even bear the idea of David and Jonathan kissing, so they deleted that too. You'll find no male intimacy or exceeding going on in the NLT Bible!

    When we read the bible we need to look beyond the words on the page and come to understand how it's evolved over time. The passage I make reference to above is only one example of an instance where some theological tinkering and sanitising has taken place. Have an enquiring mind set and always ask yourself why that might be. What's going on when that happens? We need to go beyond our comfort zone and do some real bible study and research, rather than indulge in what the church passes off as bible study. When we go deeper and ask questions about the historical context and language and examine the allegorical and moral meaning a bright lightbulb is illuminated. The bible isn't a book like any other and it cannot be read in such a way. Behind all of the verses and chapters is a depth and complexity that we can wrestle with for a lifetime and it totally fascinates me. Don't be taken in by people who claim to have all the answers and denounce homosexuality as a sin, because they have no idea.
     
  20. Lucy Marie

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    PatrickUK, yes indeed. Context is important—so important. Even with Jesus’ life today we just don’t know. Some read Bible and think Jesus’ brothers are used in a figurative way and others take it literally—Mary does not remain “pure”.
    I also agree we need to delve into Bible history ourselves and not rely on what someone else feels the take away should be. If I understand, you are also saying Church driven Bible study is a startling point not endgame—I so agree with that. There are too many who believe they know the Bible because they attend Service (of chosen faith) and can make things worse.
    I’ve said before and will again, we were told to love—not to eliminate others because of who they are.
    Please remember there are Christians that do not believe homosexuality is a sin. They do their best to embrace all.
    ((momhugs))