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"bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of people.

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by NonsnsOnStilts, May 6, 2014.

  1. Fallingdown7

    Fallingdown7 Guest

    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    What the hell are you talking about? He's not even biologically male, so of course he's not going to have a high level of testosterone regardless. He's a Trans guy that probably hasn't started T yet.

    Regardless, NOBODY would disagree that low testosterone can cause health problems, but that has nothing to do with being asexual. Being asexual is about not having the desire to have partnered sex. Asexuals get horny. Asexuals masturbate. They watch porn. They think about sex. Just like someone can be heterosexual and have a low sex drive and arousal problems; that doesn't make them asexual, and an asexual who has high arousal and watches porn every hour isn't NOT asexual.

    A 15 year old doesn't need to feel sexual attraction. They don't need to have sex with people. There are consequences at that age. Just because someone says they're asexual at 15 doesn't mean they don't get aroused, masturbate, or watch porn. Don't assume.
     
  2. Ebro1122

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    Well, body dysmorphia can also cause sexual disfunction. But the T should probably help with the sexual desire.
     
  3. Fallingdown7

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    ....He already has sexual desire.
     
  4. Ebro1122

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    Just not the desire to be sexual with other people yet? Hell, if that's the case, maybe I was asexual when I was 15!
     
  5. CreativeLlamas

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    This kinda confused me...

    I've been questioning myself as Bi or Straight for a while...but I get what's being said about it being so broad a label and whatnot as I've been confused for so long for the every reasons that's been said.

    I would more than happily be in a relationship with a girl, sexual or not. And I have been in one with a guy. I've found women to be sexually and physical attractive many times but dismissed it usually. Thinking it was just a phase but it's become stronger as the months have gone on.

    I made a thread a while ago asking for advice as to whether I could label myself as Bi. The advice I got did kinda help but I still haven't been fully confident to make the full decision yet and this thread has helped slightly but also set me back slightly if I really am Bisexual...?
     
  6. Fallingdown7

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop



    Well, sure, but a lot of 15-year olds have sexual attraction at their age. I don't think his identity is invalid, otherwise you can't be gay or straight at 15 either, since that's based on who you want to sleep with.

    I'm still pretty "asexual" at 23, so I think It's possible. It doesn't mean I had hormone problems for being asexual- hell, I was told my sex drive was too high and that I had a porn addiction. But being horny and addicted to porn didn't make me actually develop a sexual attraction to other people, just like a lesbian who gets off to two dudes getting it on isn't a heterosexual.

    I consider myself gray-a though, and so does he. And us grays still may experience some sexual attraction or desire, just below normal. Heck, asexuals can have partnered sex just fine. They just lack an attraction to it. If my partner asked for sex, I'm sure I would do it just to please them, but I'd never show an interest otherwise nor ask upfront because I wouldn't care.
     
  7. biAnnika

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    That's a charming saying. Another one is "When a horse with stripes comes up to you and says 'I'm a zebra', it's not nice to express your doubts and suggest that he should go to a vet to have that theory confirmed."

    Seriously. A member tells us how he identifies. Another member says, "eh, I'm not sure you could possibly know that at your age...your parents should be worried about your development"...and the mod replies in support of this? Chip, I was impressed when you told us (just a bit ago) that you felt people should use whatever labels they feel comfortable with...

    So what? Your rule about other's labels doesn't apply to asexuals? Or doesn't apply to mods?
     
  8. all paths

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    This.

    I wish we could, in this 'safe' place, stop assuming (no matter WHO we are or how much we know) that we know better than others what their own experience is. That is arrogance. -No matter how old the person in question is, or what their situation.

    I think most here try their best (I guess), but put yourself in the other person's shoes and listen to your words before you post them. Also, change the characters: "How would this come across if the person I'm speaking to was an X instead of a Z? And if I were a Y and not a K, speaking to an X and not a Z?"

    Otherwise, double standards easily get applied in interacting with others.

    While a medical condition may always be a valid sort of concern about anyone, it is the way we apply this assumption (that something may be medically wrong) and who to that becomes problematic, especially if we have biases based on ignorance about certain issues or populations.
     
  9. Fallingdown7

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I love you.

    I'm sure everyone on this site would have defended me if I came out telling them that someone told me that I can't know that I'm gay, "I might like men eventually", but if I identify as something else (an even more marginalized sexuality mind you) I'm wrong and should see a doctor?
     
  10. Caillin

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    Oh what the actual fuck is going on right now you know what I dont go to the 15 and younger people on this site and go oop no you probably aren't may gay maybe you go to a doctor? Im damn sure if I did people would have a fucking rampage.
     
    #70 Caillin, May 8, 2014
    Last edited: May 8, 2014
  11. Lipstick Leuger

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

     
  12. Chip

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I'm quoting a common saying that describes something backed up by statistics and science. You're pulling something out of your ass to inartfully make a point that makes no sense, because you apparently stuck on this idea that somebody's trying to persecute you. And nobody's trying to do that.

    People should use whatever label they are comfortable with. I stand by that statement. At the same time, (imperfect analogy coming) if somebody read about symptoms of some life-threatening illness and decided they had it and were going to die, started preparing to die and living in that way, and decided they didn't want to even attempt to find out if they really had said condition, most reasonable people (angry asexuals/asexual apologists, convinced that people are trying to invalidate them, likely excluded) would suggest that it makes sense to do some investigation.

    Human beings are hardwired, according to evolutionary biology for the 4 Fs: Food, Fight, Flight, Fuck. Social science tells us that we are wired for connection, which is also intrinsically associated with sex.

    Therefore most people have some sort of hardwired sexual attraction. This isn't something I'm pulling out of my ass, or something we need studies to validate. So given that, and given the less than 1% number, we can safely assume that the other 99.x% of the population isn't asexual.

    So when someone decides something that essentially goes against something that we're pretty confident about, AND something for which there are a variety of other explanations for that account for about 99% of the population, we can do one of two things:

    -- Say "Well, we should simply honor this person's idea and not question it under any circumstances"

    -- Say "Well, there's a 99% chance that there's another reason why he feels the way he does, so it makes sense to suggest to him he might want to explore other possibilities."

    This is substantially different than talking about homosexual orientations because, by the (crappy) research assembled by "the asexual community" itself, we know that there is a very high correlation between asexuality and depression, anxiety, and aggression (their data and associations, not mine.) Also, before anybody gets butthurt or brings it up, I'm not saying there's a causal relationship; we don't know if the isolation asexual people feel causes the psychological problems, or if the psychological problems cause the asexuality, or if they're unrelated correlates. We simply don't know, in part because I have a suspicion the researchers doing the work on asexuality are afraid to honestly look at that issue, since none of the studies I've read even raise it as a possibility.

    But what we do also know is that depression and anxiety are strongly correlated with decreased or nonexistent sex drive. So we have plenty of reasonable evidence, and pretty strong statistics, to indicate that there may be something other than hardwiring that's causing someone to feel no sexual attraction.

    And again, given that we are hardwired, from an evolutionary biology perspective, to have a sex drive, and to have positive feelings associated with that, there's no harm in exploring the possibility that this person might have an opportunity to experience something that over 99% of the population finds pleasant and enjoyable, and evolutionary biology tells us is an innate, hardwired part of us (well, 99.x percent of us in any case.)


    Somebody has an ENORMOUS persecution complex and it's getting really tiresome. You can talk until you're blue in the face and it isn't going to stop evidence-based discussion from happening.
     
  13. Chip

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

     
  14. Fallingdown7

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    What. I am so sick of all the blatant acephobic bullshit on this website. Don't forget that homosexuality was also considered a disorder at one point. And no homosexuality is not a "different" case....we're biologically hardwired to have sex for the purpose of REPRODUCING. It might feel good, but that's not the biological purpose for it. It feels good for the reason that it will GET us to reproduce. Maybe everyone here in this thread needs to go see a doctor for their homosexuality for the same reasons because they have "unnatural" attractions and can't reproduce with the person they have sex with.

    Or at least that's what straight people tell gay people all the time. You guys are no better than homophobic people by forcing another marginalized sexuality to change who they are (Especially if they're happy).

    And on a side note, can people literally NOT READ HERE? People are still assuming asexuals have no sex drives or desires; THEY DO. As I've said time and time again, asexuals can have higher sex drives than "normal" people do. I guarantee you that there are asexuals with higher sex drives than some of you and that watch more porn than some of you guys do. Hell, plenty of us asexuals have sexual fantasies; they just involve other people and not us. But yet you keep making an asinine assumption that they don't have sexual hormones or get hard/wet.

    1% of the population being asexual is higher than you think; that still means over a thousand people are asexual because of how high our population is.

    Seriously, I don't want to have sex, I'm not interested. I still have normal fantasies and hormones. If I went to a doctor for a hormone check, I'd be considered "normal", and all the hormones that get injected in me aren't going to make me find people attractive any more than giving a gay man more testosterone will turn him straight.

    I am not depressed just because my sex drive is low. I was more depressed when it was high because it got in the way of my life when I wanted to do other things. It's fucking miserable having to get off 24/7 when there's other things you could be doing. I don't care if people want to have sex; just leave me out of it.
     
    #74 Fallingdown7, May 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2014
  15. biAnnika

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    The post you quoted was not mine. I don't believe anything I've said in this thread could properly be construed as "vehement", until you (who are in a position of authority here) tried to medicalize a kid's identity in a way that was clearly hurtful to him. I'm not even sure what I said then that could properly be construed as "vehement". I think I've been a pretty moderate voice on this thread.

    There is not and never was any sense of persecution...paint with whatever brush you like. I'm sorry if you feel slighted because I didn't thank you for setting things straight on the bisexual issue. I did appreciate that...but I thought your statement stood well enough on its own...I had nothing to add.

    On the "big issue", can we please rewind for perspective?

    Kenneth is 15 years old, and lists Gray-A as part of his orientation. He makes the statement:

    That is the extent of Kenneth's claims to asexuality. Gray-A isn't that strong a statement to begin with. Hardly worthy of the whole ensuing kafuffle.

    And yet two adults, including an Admin (who again, is a voice of authority here) find it appropriate to raise medical concerns and challenge Kenneth's use of the label.

    Chip, I'm with you on the statistics and science, sure...never said a word against them. And I would be the last person here to try to discourage evidence-based discussion. But I stand by my zebra "saying" (which I certainly did pull out of my ass; but come on..."inartful"? surely, it was at least "cute") that it's not *nice* under such circumstances to jump on a kid's innocent statement and start medicalizing his identity.

    He wasn't talking about settling down to an asexual life, he wasn't talking about sterilizing himself, he wasn't talking about much, really...just using the label. Personally, I don't think that rises to either situation in the false dichotomy you raise (honor his identity and not question under any circumstances vs. suggest he consider other possibilities), What's the imperative to say anything at all?

    So I never said (and wouldn't say) your facts were bollocks...but your approach wasn't nice, and it appears to have had the effect of driving Kenneth away from the site. And "before anyone gets butthurt", no, dear, no part of me thinks that was your intent. But it wasn't sensitive to him. That was my point. Well, ok, I suppose the other part of the point was that it's particularly bad form when the insensitivity comes from an Admin (and I confess that my attempt to make that point was a bit snarky). Nonetheless, I contend that both points do in fact make sense.
     
  16. Reptillian

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I love it how Chip claims that romantic orientation is not separated from sexual orientation without offering any real evidence such as brain studies which support that they resides in the same exact area of the brain without minor differences in where they resides(even if local). That's the exact prediction of sexual orientation=romantic orientation. Give the evidence please.
     
  17. Ebro1122

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I 100% agree with you Chip. I feel as if there needs to be more research done in this area.
    At the end of the day, it about safety and responding to situations carefully. I wouldn't want to encourage something that could potentially have a negative impact on an individual, especially if they are very young.
     
  18. Fallingdown7

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    This is a good post, so thanks for it.

    I should apologize for getting so hostile in this thread too. I can see a lot of people here where our emotions get the best of us. It's just aggravating me that even though I've tried explaining that the asexual identity has nothing to do with arousal or a hormone problem; people seem to completely ignore that and make assumptions/continue to marginalize a valid sexuality when nobody here would treat gay teens like that.

    This is supposed to be a support forum. Kenneth felt attacked and trivialized, and I frankly don't blame him. People with non-heteronormative sexualities are coming here to seek support and help, while being completely shamed and pathologized by the people they hoped they could get answers from.

    This is another reason why I don't like calling myself asexual either, because I feel more accepted here if I just say "homosexual". I know I'm in the gray area and can feel some sexual interest, but I feel like I can't relate to anyone having sexual problems in their relationships either. And if I try to talk about my feelings on lack of sexual interest, I'm shamed and talked down to as well.

    I can only imagine how Kenneth must feel; just like bisexuals, asexuals are discriminated against by both straight and gay communities.
     
    #78 Fallingdown7, May 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2014
  19. Aldrick

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I haven't read the entire thread, but that quote right there is the crux of the problem.

    When people start handing out labels, or turning themselves into the label police it's a major issue. When someone comes to EC struggling with their sexual orientation, no matter how badly they want me to tell them whether they're gay, straight, bi, or something else - I'm not going to give them a label. Like any person, I may have an opinion, but in the end my opinion is irrelevant.

    My goal and intent in being supportive is to help usher individuals along the path to their own self-discovery. Not hand out a label and confirm things for them one way or another. I may talk about my own feelings and experiences as a way to help them relate, but that's the extent that I feel comfortable handing out a label.

    There are a lot of people, unfortunately, who use certain labels as bridges on their journey of self-discovery and acceptance. A lot of gay people, sadly, pick up the bisexual label and try it on before they come out to identify as gay or lesbian. Usually, it's because it gives them some link back to heterosexuality.

    This is one thing that I do actively discourage, because it makes things more difficult for people who are legitimately bisexual. It also makes things more difficult on people who want to come out as bisexual, but aren't completely certain or are still struggling to come to terms with their sexual identity. My advice on this matter is to never come out with a label attached to your name unless you're absolutely certain. It just confuses straight people, and if you encounter someone who isn't accepting and then later go back and change your label - it forces them to start the process of acceptance all over again. Also, if you're coming out as bisexual and you're really gay, it gives people like parents false hope that they can still steer you toward a heterosexual relationship. When you go back and label yourself gay, parents in those situations will often label their kids "confused" and... it creates a whole series of unnecessary problems that can just be avoided by waiting until you're certain about your sexual orientation.

    If someone is in a situation where they aren't completely certain about their sexual orientation, and they want to come out - I'd always push them toward using the label "Questioning". That's the ideal bridge label, and it's something that straight people can wrap their heads around. It's easier to explain to them: "Look, I realize I have some same sex attractions, and I'm trying to figure out whether I'm bisexual or gay. So, for the time being, I'm just going to label myself as questioning." That's pretty straight forward and easy to understand, and doesn't cause any harm to people who are bisexual.

    It also helps cover people like NonsnsOnStilts, who may have some romantic feelings toward guys, but much prefers to be with women romantically and sexually. So, at a point when someone like NonsnsOnStilts grows comfortable with her sexual orientation, she's in a position to say: "Hey, look while I have some romantic attraction toward guys, I have a much greater desire for romantic and sexual relationships with women so I'm going to label myself a lesbian." At that point, regardless of the technicalities of the bisexual definition, people should respect and accept her label.

    To the extent that we're concerned about labels, it should be over whether or not someone is going out and harming themselves or others by mislabeling themselves. As well as, getting someone to a point where they feel comfortable and confident in their label.

    In fact, when I'm talking to people who are struggling with their sexual orientation, I tell them to ignore labels all together. The "am I? aren't I?" questions are not helpful. The best advice someone can receive in that position is to stop over thinking things, to relax, and just go out into the world and accept whatever feelings and desires arise without judgement. Nature will always work itself out in the end.

    There are a smaller group of people who legitimately have emotional blocks, and end up in a position where they are stuck. In those instances, it's best to recommend therapy, so that they can explore their feelings and issues with a professional. Sexual abuse can sometimes lead to this problem, and thus is always best dealt with through a qualified professional.

    For everyone else, just encouraging them to avoid labels, stop thinking about it so much, and to give themselves permission to feel what they feel without judgement is sufficient. Nature will always lead them in the right direction. At some point down the road, they'll feel comfortable with a label - which they will and should select for themselves.
     
  20. valerie247

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I didn't read the rest of the thread. This right here summed up my entire experience. I am married to a man and can have sex with him. It doesn't feel 100% right, it doesn't feel whole, and it doesn't feel like "me", but I can do it and I can enjoy the connection I have with him. Outside of this, there is very little in the way of attraction that could be defined as anything but lesbian (my test came up as Kinsey 5). The idea of moving from the title "bi" to the title "lesbian" was really solely about this topic. If I am "bi", there is a possibility that I could be fulfilled in a relationship with him, and I just wasn't trying hard enough. Counseling should be able to solve problems like that. But that's not true, I can feel that it's not true. The label "bi" never felt right, but the reason is so difficult to put into words. Thank you for doing just that! I'd like to save this post for reference when I come out to more people. Do you mind?
     
    #80 valerie247, May 8, 2014
    Last edited: May 8, 2014