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"bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of people.

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by NonsnsOnStilts, May 6, 2014.

  1. TheStormInside

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    Yeah, the "everyone is bisexual" argument is bunk, I agree.

    I guess my feeling about this is that it's tough to find the "box" where you fit, and the more boxes there are the smaller they are, and the harder it is to fit. More choices don't always cause less confusion, and it can be overwhelming to have to analyze yourself to the point of fitting into a tiny segment of a tinier segment of a tiny population.

    I like the concept of the Kinsey scale, but feel it's more of a spectrum, so you can be a 2 or a 4 or a 3.95 or a 1.7. The reason I dislike dividing and subdividing categories with new terminology for each category is that people are all different and experience their sexuality differently, and the more people who say "I am this and this but not this" the more boxes you are going to have to create. As I said, that seems a little overwhelming, especially to those new to the community. I also feel it can be isolating and as Chip said, splinter the community further than it already is.

    That all having been said, people are of course free to label themselves however they so choose. These are just my opinions on the matter of labeling sexuality as a broader concept in this community.
     
  2. Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I just want to say that the pressure that you and so many others give to fit inside one label has and still has been giving me so much stress, turmoil, guilt, and depression. When I first realized that I wasn't straight or gay - I hated that. I knew that now, I had to fit myself somewhere, but didn't know where - Until I reached the word bisexual and it felt pretty much right for me... Until I read things like what you say, then I go and panic as to if I am really bisexual, when I'm 90% sure that I am, and almost hate myself because I already just want to label myself - And I can't because of all the specifics and everything. And it really is so frustrating.

    First off, you can STILL have a preference and be bisexual. It's not just a 50/50 thing. It could be a 70/50 thing. Next, yes, I do seperate my attractions in sexual and romantic, but you know what? That feels even more right for me.

    I tried to get rid of my demiromantic side with women so that I could be, as you put, a "real" bisexual - But being demi with women was just a part of me - I couldn't just look at a random hot woman and fall in love! I needed to know them and have a connection with them - Like with my other woman loves - To be head over heals in love with one. However, because of my past loves that were women, I knew that I can absoutely be with a woman - no doubt about it - In fact, most of the time now, I want to date a woman a lot more and I'm more sexually attracted to women as well (I'm only demiromantic). So that debunks me just being a 1 or a 2.

    Then, I thought I had to force myself to be sexually aroused by a male - When I wasn't - And when people call me a lesbian just because I don't want to have sex with a man, I look at my emotional attraction to men and I just can't deny that I would love to be with a man as well. So, again, I'm not just a 4 or 5 either.

    I hope I didn't sound to harsh, but my struggle to fit exactly into bisexual label has been a hard one. And hey, maybe I can't be the exact bisexual you or others want me to be, but I can assure you that I know myself and I don't care if it's a man/woman on my wedding day, because I would love them either way - As long as the woman/man was super nice, Christ-like, and could understand me - I would kiss this bride or the groom.

    Again, I apologize if I was kind of mean on this, I didn't mean to be - I just feel as strongly as you do about this. I still love you though <33

    And techincally, isn't the label for someone who really is a 1 or 2 or a 4 or a 5 but has the possibility of liking another gender bicurious?

    So, yeah, these are my thoughts, let me know what you think about what I said, your feedback would be really nice :slight_smile:
     
  3. Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop


    I did not say that bi is a flawed orientation, I said that it is a flawed category.
    That is a subtle, but fundamental difference.
    The category contains many different shades of orientation and it makes it confusing.

    Not for others, but for us, when we are trying to figure out our own orientation.

    A Kinsey 1 and I Kinsey 5 don't have that much common with each other, as a Kinsey 5 has with 6 for example.

    That does not make either of the actual orientations behind the label invalid, but the label itself does not work that well.

    Why would people feel the need to come out as biromantic, demisexual etc, if 'bi' as a category worked well for everyone who is not entirely straight or gay?

    My post and argument has precisely to do with the fact that the way the label works makes some people invisible.

    ---------- Post added 7th May 2014 at 03:26 PM ----------

    Your post shows the essence of the problem.
    Add to this that the issue is not with how we are perceived, but how it makes us think about ourselves.

    For me it always boils down to the point that when I start perceiving myself as bisexual, I never perceive myself as a Kinsey 5, or 4.5, I instantly start thinking that I am a 3 => that I am equally capable of relationships with both, and in my case it is not true, and I cause hurt to myself and to others.

    Socially I am also perceived as 'into men', and it makes me feel like my queer, gay side gets erased.
     
    #23 NonsnsOnStilts, May 7, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2014
  4. Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop


    I think the aspect of using it as a 'bridge' label comes also from the perception that you have to be exclusively into the same sex to be able to 'deserve' the use of the gay/lesbian label, and in my case, especially as a newly out person you feel like you need to have 'approval' from the community to be accepted as gay.

    I am not very femme, but I am sure that many femmes struggle with their sexuality because of their perception as not 'gay enough'.

    So if you happen to have had enjoyable experiences with the opposite sex once, or if you are capable of forming romantic relationships with the opposite sex ('biromantic' here!), you automatically feel that 'bi' is more honest.

    But this leads to the above mentioned self-delusion that believing yourself to be bisexual makes you capable of having relationships with both genders to the same extent.

    Keeping the 'bi' label so wide to basically mean 'anyone who does not hate the opposite sex' means that anyone who is not exclusively a Kinsey 6 feels obliged to adopt the 'bi' label, because they are not 'exclusively gay'. In some cases it almost feels like having come anywhere near a penis made one bisexual.

    I got deluded into thinking I am a Kinsey 3, because 'I am bi', and I basically stay in the closet because it is more difficult to come out as gay if you don't feel you are 'really gay'/ don't fit the identity.


    I wish I was told; "you can have bisexual tendencies, but still be gay at heart".

    Instead all over the place, when I was doubting I was told:

    'you can still be 'bi' if you don't lust after men, but fell in love with them in the past and could have sex with them in the past'
    this despite the fact that it never felt completely satisfying and like a huge essential part was missing. What this meant to my doubting self as "you can still date men, yaay"! and " you don't have to ditch the straight world". when all I was looking for was reassurance that this is not right for me.
     
    #24 NonsnsOnStilts, May 7, 2014
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  5. Quem

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    That's true indeed, although you don't really have to fit, do you? You just find a label, if any, you're comfortable with. If there is no label, then don't feel down, the label system simply doesn't work for you. It does work for some, so I think the labels are a good thing, if assigned properly, that's the problem.

    I always thought of it as a spectrum. I generates a number. If you feel like you're close to 3, why not give yourself a 3,25? It's what makes you feel comfortable. :slight_smile:

    Nah you don't necessarily get more boxes. Boxes are not strict, they are all fluid I think. You can be a bit of both.. :slight_smile:

    @NonsnsOnStilts
    For me it always boils down to the point that when I start perceiving myself as bisexual, I never perceive myself as a Kinsey 5, or 4.5,

    Why do you never perceive yourself as Kinsey 5? Indeed, if you're not Kinsey ~3, but you think of yourself as bisexual, it can be very confusing. Use the label you want. (*hug*) But if you're not comfortable with it, don't use it.
     
  6. looking for me

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    a bit of splitting hairs there IMO. i do get the confusing part of BI, really i do. someone mentioned boxes, think of it as a bigger box than pure straight or pure gay.

    you keep referencing Kinsey numbers; they're just numbers, not a destination but rather a reference point. in the end it's easy to get caught up in "i'm this" or "i'm that" but you, are you. Unique, beautiful, you. if some one hits on you, male or female, it's because they see something attractive about you (physical, spiritual, etc.) if your not interested in the advance shoot them down either way. just as a straight woman blocks advances from men ect. it can be bothersome, tiresome but still that's life.(*hug*)

    i do feel that there is, and i am seeing it now that i am aware of it, bi-phobia on both sides of the orientation divide and, if not a conscious effort, a subliminal push to erase "BI" so that it's easier to have a binary model of gay/straight without the bother of the populous middle ground that is the bi sexual spectrum. i am not saying that you are doing this in a conscious manner but the impression did come through on my end anyway.

    not every thing is black or white, sometimes you get some cream in your coffee and if your lucky something to sweeten it.
     
  7. biAnnika

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I'm sorry...as a bisexual, I have a really hard time understanding *why* you have to figure this out? Why not just date who you're attracted to? If sex sounds good, and you relate well, have sex...if not, don't. And if you find yourself enjoying sex with both sexes, I guess you're bisexual...otherwise, you're gay or straight. What's the imperative to decide on a label first?

    ---------- Post added 7th May 2014 at 06:09 PM ----------

    For Pete's sake dear, if the word doesn't describe you, then just don't use it. Nobody is making you...and I certainly hope nobody important is trying to put it on you.

    The word "queer" is a wonderful word and plenty of people use it and feel good about it. But it is *not* a better word than "bisexual" for describing bisexuals! It might be the best word in the world for describing *you*...fine, use it...but that doesn't make it a better word than bisexual...just better for describing *you*.
     
  8. looking for me

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    two excellent responses, if it don't fit don't use it. find the best fit for you as others have to find the best fit for them, I am Me, You are You and They are They.(&&&)
     
  9. dubaisexual

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    It's not about finding which category you fit in. It's about figuring out what you like.

    If you're confused, it's probably not because of the labels, but because you don't know what you want to begin with. The question isn't "Am I gay or bi?", but "Who am I romantically or physically attracted to?"
    If you know you occasionally like men, but are mostly attracted to women, that's your orientation.
     
  10. biAnnika

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I disagree that this is a problem with the word. This is (to me) like a guy getting upset with the word "gay" because people think gay men are all effeminate and like to camp about in drag.

    In both cases, the problem isn't with the word...it's with societal misconceptions about what the word *means*...what people with that quality are actually like! And so in both cases, the solution isn't getting a "better word"...it's educating the public, so there aren't so many ignorant fools out there making stupid assumptions.
     
  11. all paths

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I personally subscribe to the identification "bisexual" when the term is used like this:

    “I call myself bisexual because I acknowledge that I have in myself the potential to be attracted – romantically and/or sexually – to people of more than one sex and/or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree.” -Robyn Ochs


    But since the quantity of people who agree to see it that way is few, I like to be a lot clearer and use terms to explain (more accurately) what my specific attractions/orientations are.
     
  12. sldanlm

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    From the OP: I feel that the concept of bisexuality is itself a flawed concept, which really pushes back everybody who is not a Kinsey 6 deeply back into the closet, creates lot's of confusion, and is detrimental to people who are innately "bisexual" = capable of equally fulfilling relationships with both genders, and not just 'capable of bisexual interest'. and

    Anyone who wonders "am I bi or gay?" should be told to ask themselves a question:
    do you like both sexes equally and genuinely don't care whom you end up with as a life partner? Are you equally compatible with both? if the answer is "no", then you are not 'bi', but either straight or gay and flexible/curious.


    The confusing thing to me is the generic aspect of the question. If you're talking about men in general, the answer is a definite no. So why is it that I'm in love with a guy, and he is as compatible with me as any of the same sex relationships I've had?

    The position " You can have a gay preference, but still be 'bi'" is really not helpful to a lot of people who want to come out and shut the closet door behind them because being 'bi' makes us keep trying to make it in the straight world,
    because 'we like the opposite sex, but are just picky, so maybe there is that one person who will make us happy', when in reality we aren't just "picky" but are simply not that compatible with opposite sex, despite sometimes liking some opposite sex people.

    Of course this is controversial, but for me keeping the bi label so wide, and including all the people who have a preference for one sex, over the other under it, creates a situation which dilutes homosexuality, it makes a Kinsey 5 lesbian be seen as "oh she might still end up with a man" and a person who is a Kinsey 3 who is attracted to a same sex person as 'not really serious' because they are 'bisexual' and 'they are really straight' (based on the assumption that 'all bisexuals are really only bi-curious straights').[/I]

    If being bi only means having an equal attraction then what do you call someone who has an attraction to women in general, but who is having a loving and fulfilling relationship with a guy? There's nothing missing in my current relationship I can't exactly call myself a lesbian anymore since I'm still having a sexual relationship with him, but I can't call myself straight either as long as I have an attraction to women also. Granted I'm not acting on that attraction, but that has do to with monogamy. If the current relationship were to end, I could easily go back to dating women. So based on the OP, what is someone like me?
     
  13. Ebro1122

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    All I can say is YAAAAASSSS! I totally agree. And on a side note, I've always thought that the whole separate romantic orientation thing was inherently flawed. Its not even recognized! People need to remember that a *SEXUAL* attraction is what defines a *SEXuality*. Its not called a ROMANTIC-ality. True sexual attraction is incredibly difficult to fake. It is primal, chemical and virtually out of our hands to decide or control. That's why it is used. Emotions, however, are almost entirely situational and often contradictory.
     
    #33 Ebro1122, May 7, 2014
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
  14. ThisIsTheKenneth

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    ARE YOU SERIOUS?
    I thought we were past this whatwhatwhyyyyyy???

    Some cool facts:
    • you can be a kinsey 3 and id as bi
    • you can be a kinsey 4 and id as bi
    • you can be a kinsey 2 and id as bi
    • you can be a kinsey 5 and id as bi
    • you don't have to like all genders equally or even in the same way to id as bi

    But that doesn't mean anyone has to! If someone is a 4 or 3 or whatever but can't see themself in a relationship with someone of another gender, then they can id as gay if they want. They can also keep everything to themself and tell nosy folks to mind their business.

    Really if this isn't common knowledge the problem is with the community, not the category. The labels were made for us, not the other way around. Sheesh.

    ---------- Post added 7th May 2014 at 09:04 PM ----------

    Except, y'know, asexual people exist and we happen to have romantic feelings and not want sex with anyone so. Yeah.
     
  15. plutoniangirl

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I do know true bisexuals. People who can have relationships with both genders and enjoy sex with them. I don't consider a straight or gay/lesbian who have had a single or few sexual experiences with someone opposite of their orientation "bi." I think it confuses straight or gay/lesbians who have a random same/opposite attraction and makes them accept a label that they are not entire comfortable with based on a single incident.

    Saying someone who is is Bisexual is actually straight or gay is rigid and invalidating. Biphobia confuses me as much as homophobia.
     
  16. looking for me

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    YES:thumbsup:
     
  17. all paths

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis^

    The same way that "recognized" terms & concepts, in attraction, come to be officially "recognized": They poll US. The researchers do not come up with terms and then go, "Okay, who fits this? :grin: "

    They ASK THE COMMUNITY about their experience, and THAT's where they get their terms!!

    We don't have to conform to anyone else's narrow terms that have, decades later, finally in themselves only just been accepted. FFS! >_< :soapbox:


    And thank you, asexual community, for giving us some more sophisticated terms & ideas for attraction which have greatly increased our knowledge and understanding in the area. <3 I personally owe you guys a huge debt of gratitude.
     
    #37 all paths, May 7, 2014
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
  18. biAnnika

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    Why, I do believe that is why that distinction exists!
     
  19. all paths

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    It feels like being a square peg that others are trying their damnedest to pound into a round hole. >_<
     
  20. Ebro1122

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    Okay, cool. I wasn't talking about asexuals though (obviously) :dry:

    A 15 year old panromantic asexual huh? *sigh* That is a whole other discussion.